Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by tanchy, Nov 13, 2013.
Please include what era, what buildings/units it will supply and what it will do.
This is a good idea.
Ancient Era- Fire- +1 food per city (fire was a key component in early nutrition). Requires Agriculture and helps unlock Trapping.
What about putting Gunpowder in the Medieval era and, after that, a "Firearms" tech in the Reinassance? Gunpowder would give you passive bonuses for your military (i.e your siege weapons now ignore walls or boost their vs cities bonus to 300% or something else). Firearms could be research after Machinery and Gunpowder and it'd allowed to build musketmen and the Himeji Castle.
We should probably sort out the tech tree in place as well, while we're at it!
Prehistoric Era - Fire Making - +1 food per city
Requires Tool Making
Prehistoric - Tool Making - Can build men with sticks and stones
Requires Homo Habilis
Pliocene Era - Homo Habilis - Will spawn a settler
Requires Australopithecus afarensis
Pliocene Era - Australopithecus afarensis
Unlocked at the start
Sort of been working on that for the last year-and-a-half or so.
Here's my current suggestion for best state-of-affairs if you're interested. Some of it is still a bit of work in progress, so apologies for the random icons appearing some places. Much of it would be self-explanatory, but feel free to ask about details if you want to know more.
Modified tech tree
Most of the changes up to and including Medieval I used as part of a mod before BnW, the latter eras are suggestions made post-BnW to accommodate for some of the issues I have with BnW, but haven't gotten to the point of playtesting those yet.
All of the Civ series games have used a strictly Linear Tech Tree. That is, in order to get to X you had to research Y (and sometimes A and B as well) Every Civilization ended up with the same set of Technologies if they got far enough in the game. Everybody got the same advantages from the same Technologies, barring Civilization-Specific Attributes (UU, UA, UB, etc) The only real variation in this was that some of the Tech Trees required more different technologies to advance to the next level.
I've been thinking for a while about ways to differentiate the Tech advances by civilization, and while it's nowhere near complete, here's what I'd like to suggest:
To the current Technologies, add Applications of those Technologies that may or may not be researched. In other words, what you got out of a given Technology would depend in part on what further research you did into the application of that technology.
I propose that you could research one technology at a time, as now, but in addition you could also research an Application of a technology at the same time. Since each Technology might have up to 3 - 4 Applications, even if Applications took, say, 1/2 the amount of research to complete, you'd never be able to research all of the Applications.
Each civilization would have to pick and choose, and that would allow further differentiation among the civilizations than we have now.
Some examples, based on the current Tech Tree (which, I admit, needs some very basic changes in addition to anything here):
.+ 1 Food from any farmed tile with direct access to fresh water
...(oasis, river, lake)
.+ 1 Food from any farmed tile on a hill
..Application: Forest Gardening
.+ 1 Food from any otherwise unimproved Forest tile
Technology: Animal Husbandry
.Application: Leather Armor
.All Units get Cover I promotion against Archer or Chariot Archer ranged fire
..Application: Selective Breeding
.- 10% to cost of all Mounted Units
.+ 10% Food from any Cattle, Sheep
..Application: Extended Domestication
.+ 10% Food from every Granary
.+ 5% Gold and Production from every Camp
Technology: Bronze Working
..Application: Metal Tools
.+ 10% to construction of all Buildings or Wonders
..Application: Lost Wax Casting
.+ 5% to research of Construction and Metal Casting
.Makes Colossus Wonder possible
.+ 5% to research of Guilds
.+ 5% Production
.+ 5% to research of Astronomy
.+ 5% to spread of Religion
..Application: Festival Days
.+ 5% Happiness
..Application: Temple Schools
.+ 5% to research of Writing
.+ 5% Science
.+ 5% Gold from all Trade Routes
.- 5% Cost to construct any Building
.+ 10% Melee Factor in Triremes, Quinqueremes
..Application: Shipping Insurance
.+ 10% Gold from Sea Trade Routes
.+ 5% to research of Banking
Technology: The Wheel
..Application: Potters Wheel
.Can add Pottery as a Trade Good
.+ 5% to research of Machinery
..Application: Spoked Wheel
.+ 1 speed to Chariots
.+ 5% Production
..Application: Multiple Harness
.+ 10% Happiness from Colosseums (Chariot Races)
+ 5% Gold from all Land Trade Routes
In some cases, everybody would want to research the Application, but in others, what you research will lead in very different directions depending on the situation - how many desert civilizations are going to research Forest Gardening when Leather Armor, Irrigation, Metal Tools and Selective Breeding are available to be researched?
Because of the number of Applications available, some Technologies will become even more important. Just think of all the Applications of Steam Power or Electricity, for instance.
Ideally, I'd like to see each Technology with Applications that lead in different directions, as in the examples of Wheel Applications above - depending on the Civ's need, you can go for Military, Gold, Happiness or Research advantages from there Applications you pick.
Note that some basics would have to apply to keep the system manageable: Applications will not get you into the next Era, and Applications are not required to research a Tech, only add to the speed with which that Tech can be researched.
This whole concept is a Work in Progress, but I think potentially it would allow for a whole lot of variation in the Tech Tree without multiplying the basic technologies required.
This is definitely something I think would be perfect for the next instalment of the game, someone brought up a similar idea on the 2k forum about a year ago, and I think it will be an absolutely perfect way to add diversity and customization to the game.
About the applications, I do think it would be cool if some of them could only be researched by one civ, a bit like "technology wonders" to give you a certain militaristic/economical/cultural bonus. These applications should take longer than normal to research and/or be researched instead of normal technologies for balance reasons, but I think this idea would be fun because it would actually bring more tech parity in that the tech leader will be likely to use more time researching applications whereas those behind in techs will be able to use less time researching applications and thus would be able to catch up.
One thing I'd like to see is more 'interaction' between the geography, social policies, and technologies/applications. For instance, if your first 4 cities are all on the coast, Exploration or other 'seafaring' Social Policies should be easier to get, and applications/technologies relating to seafaring/sailing should be faster for you. If all of your cities are inland, researching seafaring Technology or Applications should be very nearly impossible. There's no reason to make any of the Applications 'unique' to one civilization unless you plan to also get rid of the Unique Attributes, Buildings or Units that we have in Civ V. On the other hand, if the Start Bias is accurately programmed (and it isn't now - I once restarted a game 18 times as Morocco and never got a Start Position that was both in a desert location and had a trading partner within 20 tiles - start positions that effectively negated the Civilization's Unique Attributes!) then the geographical and bias towards certain Social Policies and Applications should add to and reinforce the unique attributes of the Civilizations.
For one thing, right now the game designers have had to pick only a 'slice' of a civilization to represent in the UU, UA, or UB. So, England for instance gets bonuses in seafaring, medieval warfare (longbows) and spies. Yet England was a trade and industrial leader in the post-renaissance, attributes that could be represented by researching Applications that 'lean' your England in that direction. Got a UU towards Seafaring? Then researching the Sailing and all sailing-related Technologies and Applications should be easier for you. Built your first cities on the coast (to take advantage of your seafaring UU) then you are going to 'lean' towards Social Policies and Technologies that lead towards sea trade and travel. There's a built-in set of game design elements already in place that can be used to synergies each Civilization's historical 'unique attributes'
I think by elaborating on the interactions between Technology and Social Policy, geographical bias and possibly 'built in' Unique traits by civilization, we could vastly increase the potential variety in the game. For instance, certain units should only be available with certain combinations of Social Policy, resources and technology. The potential, I think, is enormous - but will also require a lot of work to get the balance right.
I actually really like this idea. It always seemed odd that civilization would just throw you from middle-age melee armies to gunpowder armies in 1 tech/unit upgrade. This jump just seems to quick and breaks realism.
Realistically the evolution of early firearms took hundreds of years whereas I get the impression that the Civ 5 renaissance musketman belongs in the 1700s then riflemen in the latter 1800s etc...
perhaps there should be an arquebus unit between longswordmen and musketman. I would give the unit the same strength as a longswordman but a much reduced production cost - firearms allowed armies to be raised much more quickly and cheaply rather than the long training times it would take to master swords and longbows etc.
This way an arquebus doesn't immediately obsolete either a longswordsman or a pikeman but the cheaper cost should encourage a gradual transition from melee combat to gunpowder. Then musketmen follow on as the next stronger unit at a later tech.
Historically, the first effective gunpowder weapon was there giant 'Bombard' which immediately made all city/castle walls obsolete. Far more important than the Trebuchet in the development of fortifications and armies.
The Civ 'Musketman' seems to (from the graphics and its placement in the Tech Tree) represent the matchlock musket or Arquebus of the 1500 - 1680 period. The factors match, also - it required pikemen to defend it from cavalry, since the clumsy weapons wouldn't take a bayonet.
What's been missing from all of the Civ games is the smoothbore flintlock musket with bayonet, which dominated combat from about 1700 to 1840 or so. They had twice the rate of fire, could have much tighter formations, and with the socket bayonet, could defend themselves quite well against cavalry, thus making the pikeman obsolete by the early 1700s. The 'Rifleman' in Civ really represents the breech loading gunpowder rifle of the 1860s like the US Spencer or Springfield and the German Needlegun or French Chassepot.
I've proposed several times that 'Gunpowder' give you the Bombard and the Musket, with the Bombard having 0 effect against units (they took hours to reload) but massive effect against cities, while the Musket has slightly better combat factors than crossbows or longswords, but is much cheaper (it was much simpler, from a metallurgical standpoint, to manufacture a smoothbore musket barrel than to forge a spring steel crossbow or interlocking steel plate armor!).
About 150 - 200 game years later, in the late Renaissance (actually, mid-Enlightenment Era, if we want to add Eras) you get the Fusilier unit, which has much better combat factor than the Musket, has a 25% or more increased effect against cavalry. Promotion-wise, both the Pikeman and the Musketman would promote to Fuslier, and the infantry line then becomes a single line through Rifleman, Magazine Rifle Infantry, Infantry to Mechanized Infantry.
This would also allow Unique Units to claim their proper place: The Carolean was a Fuslier, as was the classic British/English Redcoat.
With that many techs, the cost would have to be cheaper.
Or games will last longer - which is part of what I wanted to achieve, particular early eras, which I generally think pass way too quickly. Notice that in the final end of the tech tree, I've changed it so that you actually need significantly fewer late-game techs to win Science victory. This is another conscious choice because since BnW, Science Victory is not at all competitive with the other victory types (unless perhaps you are a Deity AI player).
Supply Chain Logistics: Information Era
-Benefits: Strategic Resourcesx2, Luxury Resourcesx2
Can you imagine a world w/o WalMart?
30 years earlier, the development of Containerized Shipping was the real revolution in Trade. It allows the building of the city improvement Container Terminal, which increases Gold in the city by 10% for each type of shipping passing through the city: railroad or Road connection = +10%. Railroad and a Seaport = +20%. Railroad, seaport and Airport = +30%. In addition, it increases the Gold from each Trade Route in the city by +25%
See the attachments in this post here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=502749
Irrigation - to get's farming bonuses from Civil service
Road building - obvious, wheel has nothing to do with ancient roads!
High speed city connections to replace railroads (manglev) - adds production + minor science bonus as well.
Barrels - trade bonus. Additional trade route.
Honestly tech tree is a mess. Person which thought about most of it should be send for mandatory history classes.
Prerequisites are often quite weird!
Also (and IMO most important), research flexibility is too low.
Most techs just MUST be researched, as you go on. You can decide to research a tech or another, but your decisions will converge very soon, and there're small consequences for your decision.
I explain: in CIV4 you can decide to focus on certain aspects of research, and greatly explore a given tree, momentarily forgetting another one. It was a choice, a strategic one, and could have BIG consequences (great advances in a particular aspect, at the cost of other aspects. Example, I could focus on economy, at the cost of military power).
Here, in Civ5, if I decide to skip a tech, often I finish to have to search it anyway after a very short time, because prerequisites are very stringent and force you to research almost EVERYTHING before you advance.
I'd like to see some more liberty in choose where to go on the tech tree, and be free to explore deeply a given tree without having to bother too much of the others.
I don't mind the convergence so much. The whole notion of beelining is a very metagame concept. Technological development doesn't really work like that in the real world.
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