Ideas how to improve the Espionage System

[Stalker0]

Spy resistance isn't factored in city resistance anymore. Only tech/policy differences are! To recap, city resistance only modifies mission duration.

--Remind me what is spy resistance in this context?

Broaden surveillance in city
Now automatically in effect after establishment.

--Now do you mean they get surveillance only while the spy is there, or do they get the current 20 turn duration after the spy leaves?

Arm the local populace/Target local city defenses/Radicalize the rural citizenry
Event fires on the next turn instead of on mission completion, but mission duration stays the same.

--What is the benefit here?

Siphon missions
On selection, the siphon event triggers immediately, and the target is notified. The event lasts a fixed amount of turns like kidnap specialist, with siphon% based on target security level (higher security level = lower siphon%).
The spy mission still lasts for a variable number of turns depending on target city resistance, and the identify roll/kill check is done on the last turn of the mission, using the starting security level. If not killed nor identified, the spy stays in the target city and can pick a new mission. If identified/killed, the spy returns to the hideout/dies, and it triggers the diplomatic dialogue + penalty.

--What is the real advantage of maintaining a variable mission length, if we are making siphon% variable

Capture foreign spies - 20 turns
10 turns later, mark all foreign spies on or below the counterspy's level for execution. They die after their missions are complete. Gain 25 / per executed spy.

--I get the idea, but losing your spies just plain SUCKS, and I guarantee with this mission active you will lose them a lot more.

Sabotage mission - 20 turns
End all negative spy events performed by foreign spies on or below the counterspy's level immediately. The city is immune to all negative spy events for 10 turns.

--I'm fine with the city immunity (literally just make it where the spy cannot go to that city in the interface. But again ending your spy work before it finishes just plain SUCKS.

 

[azum4roll]

--Remind me what is spy resistance in this context?

Spy resistance is the change rate of security level (the stars).

--Now do you mean they get surveillance only while the spy is there, or do they get the current 20 turn duration after the spy leaves?

Only while the spy is there.

--What is the benefit here?

You can make a city be blockaded/in resistance or a strategic pillaged whenever you want.

--What is the real advantage of maintaining a variable mission length, if we are making siphon% variable

It's already part of the formula. This is just less new code.

--I get the idea, but losing your spies just plain SUCKS, and I guarantee with this mission active you will lose them a lot more.

It's balanced by the general unwillingness to pick this option over the other, or using counterspy at all.

--I'm fine with the city immunity (literally just make it where the spy cannot go to that city in the interface. But again ending your spy work before it finishes just plain SUCKS.

Counterspy needs to be effective. There are so many cities and only a few spies.

 

[svecka]

currently espionage sistem sux. I have spy station in my capital and still he does not get any XP or he does not defend agains gold steal. Every time my gold is stolen in capital, even if i have my only spy stationed to detect spying in the capital. This is a joke.

 

[Stalker0]

You can make a city be blockaded/in resistance or a strategic pillaged whenever you want.

Wait, so your suggesting the second I kick in the target defenses mission the city goes into blockade? That's probably too good.

 

[N.Core]

Make the number of spies appear on an era based on the number of CS + Major civ in the game. Currently, it's a nightmare on bigger maps with lots of major civs.
Try to play with 14+ civ and 28+ CS. If you're the leading civ, your cities will be bombarded with spies every other turn.

More CS should be more spies, sure. But if there are more major civ, the number of spies in the game should decrease.

 

[Gazebo]

I promise I didn’t intentionally shirk the espionage system after my last major rewrite. I like the proposals I’ve read here, they’re largely in line with my vision for the espionage system rework. I don’t think great work theft should be removed though, as culture victory definitely needs more levers, not fewer.

I’m also confused, as some of the complaints in the OP were already addressed by me in a prior update. Worried that my git failed me.

G

 

[Stalker0]

I’m also confused, as some of the complaints in the OP were already addressed by me in a prior update. Worried that my git failed me.

G

I did confirm the tech steal is now capital only, so that was in fact addressed.

I'll disagree that we need more levers, we just need a few GOOD levers. CV already has 2 levers in espionage, steal tourism and copy great work. I don't need 2, I just need one solid lever to pull.

 

[Gazebo]

I don't need 2, I just need one solid lever to pull.

We still doing phrasing??

 

[Stalker0]

We still doing phrasing??

alllllllways

 

[azum4roll]

Wait, so your suggesting the second I kick in the target defenses mission the city goes into blockade? That's probably too good.

It's blockaded the very next turn. Remember you can purge that with a counterspy.

 

[Stalker0]

It's blockaded the very next turn. Remember you can purge that with a counterspy.

Which takes like 5-6 turns to setup, by that point the city could likely be taken.

 

[KlHannibal2]

In genral preferred the old system. It had fewer, but more meaningful options. Fewer numbers and modifiers were involved.

 

[nekokon]

My main issue with the espionage system is it doesn't have a solid design in the first place.
Unlike science or policy which are mostly internal component (thus rely on good planning to work well but generally free/costing nothing but opportunity cost), spy is more similar to military which interacts with other players, thus it needs more immediate/on the spot action/counter/result, which would be balanced by the amount of resource poured in.
It's a tool of (hidden) aggression, not a tool for "catching up" by being used solely on strongest players even if that's your best ally and you want to keep peace permanently (which is what we're currently having, the whole world spying on the top player regardless of relationship because it's how the system was designed)

My solution to this would be removing all missions that have catching up effect (like stealing tech or syphoning yield, put them in a special policy on statecraft or wonders or something) and focus more on aggressive missions mainly to cause harm to the enemy (either militaristically like kill units/blockage cities or politically like harming other's relationship or economically like reducing yield/pop/...) which also require you to spend a certain amount of resource (can be per turn until it's finished or one big sum) and can be countered by other player noticing immediately and have multiple options to pick from (politically like talk to the suspected leaders - you get relationship penalty if guessed wrong, or spend resource to counter, or use your own spy to counter, or just let it happen and prepare to counter by military mean,...)

 

[Stalker0]

It's a tool of (hidden) aggression, not a tool for "catching up"

My first reaction to this was: "but you need that catchup mechanic".

But frankly...do we? Honestly right now how many yields is the current system really delivering all said and done? (still far less than old tech steals). Now in modern when tech steals become a thing ago, I do think they are a strong rubberband, but until that point I could agree with the notion.

 

[amateurgamer88]

When I look at the current espionage system, the following comes to my mind:

Should espionage be a catchup mechanic? Should the leading civ have a way of counteracting enemy spies? As some have brought up, it's no fun playing well, get ahead and then deal with spies every turn.

Why is that the total ID chance can't be smaller than 10%, and the total kill chance can't be higher than 75%? What's the logic behind this? Why shouldn't a level 1 spy have 100% to perish in a well guarded capital? Maybe if the kill chance is 100%, the AI and player will put their spies elsewhere until they have leveled up.

How valuable should experienced spies be? Should they be easy to level up? Should they be difficult to level up but they also provide extra bonuses?

How should missions differ from capital and other cities? Should you steal the same amount by targeting the weakest link? Should higher security level equate to more yields due to a high risk, high reward situation?

Do we really need to increase mission duration due to City Resistance? 15 extra turns in Renaissance Era is quite different from 15 extra turns in the Modern Era. Why not just increase the ID chance and kill chance and leave it at that? If people wants city resistance to mean more, maybe give a cost to each mission and that cost scales with city resistance.

Should the AI and player be encouraged to place spies in multiple civs? Should there be more incentive to spread out instead of focusing only on the cities of one rival? Should there be more incentives when placing spies in civ cities as opposed to CS cities?

How many spies is reasonable? Should it scale? How many should spy focused policies/tenets provide?

Just a few things that comes to mind for now. Curious what people's thoughts are for them.

 

[azum4roll]

If my proposal passes, City Resistance (determined by tech/policy difference between players) affects duration, while Security Level (differed by city, unaffected by the player who sends the spy) affects identify chance and yields from siphon. Kill chance is gone and replaced by guaranteed kill from counterspy (if the capture mission is selected).

Currently security level is really meaningless, since it only affects ID and kill chance and not mission outcome. Spy Resistance affects everything instead.

 

[alchx]

I don't really like guaranteed kill. It takes many turns (20?) to replace and the new spy has no skills, advanced missions are not available to him and the duration of the missions will be increased due to inexperience. It's too punishing.

 

[AdamCrock]

Should be that like in real life - You should not get notifications like "enemy spies poisoned a well" , if enemy is successful You should only be left with a notification "sorry , Your, water is posined ..... somehow." Even better , You should not get a notifications untill 5 turns later - shows how bureauocracy works

 

[azum4roll]

I don't really like guaranteed kill. It takes many turns (20?) to replace and the new spy has no skills, advanced missions are not available to him and the duration of the missions will be increased due to inexperience. It's too punishing.

Would you pick killing a spy over stopping your yields from leaking out?

 

[alchx]

Would you pick killing a spy over stopping your yields from leaking out?

It is always unpleasant if someone's spy is conducting his operations in your city and you want to kill him. But a guaranteed 100% kill is too much punishment.

If the spy is discovered, then it takes him an average of 5 turns to re-arrive in the city - some cities are further away, others are closer. And the target city for the spy can be chosen by someone else if the priorities of the enemy empire have changed.
Or the spy can be sent as a diplomat. By the way, I don’t know if the number of votes available for purchase depends on the level of the diplomat. It would be nice if a top-level diplomat could buy more votes or get a significant discount - let's say 5% for each level above beginner. Also, a diplomat could increase the value of a caravan to this city - the bonus is not too significant, since only one caravan can be sent to any city, but for long-term friendly relations between empires, it's quite good. Peace-loving empires will receive passive bonuses, which in the end can be more valuable than the aggressive capture of enemy cities when trying to dominate or try to steal.

In addition, the mass extermination of spies will destroy the very mechanics of espionage. The most profitable action would be to send your spies to city-states or leave them in your cities for some bonuses, instead of risking spending 5 turns on a trip, 20-30 turns on a mission, making some profit (which will not greatly affect the income of our empire on the entire game distance), lose a spy and wait for a new one for another 20 utrns with 0 experience level. Instead, a spy can sit in our city and at least stabilize happiness, which will ensure non-stop growth in population and production.