If the Turks Joined WW2

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Hello everyone ive been wondering for a while how World War 2 would have ended if the Turks allied with Germany and busted up Russia's Caucasus oil fields and Spain also allying with Germany conquers the city of Gibralter. Post a World War 2 timeline of events that happen after Turkey and Spain join the war as an ally of Germany in 1943.
 
Hello everyone ive been wondering for a while how World War 2 would have ended if the Turks allied with Germany and busted up Russia's Caucasus oil fields and Spain also allying with Germany conquers the city of Gibralter. Post a World War 2 timeline of events that happen after Turkey and Spain join the war as an ally of Germany in 1943.
1943: Turkey joins the axis. Attempts to join the Russian front, makes no significant gains and is stalled in Armenia.
1944: Turkey is bombed by the U.S. and Great Britain.
1945: Turkey is invaded and occupied by the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union.

Pretty anti-climatic, eh? The U.S. economy was 60 times greater than that of Turkey. Add Great Britain, the USSR, and all of the British colonies, it's about 100 times. So, wiping out Turkey might have been an additional headache, but nothing that would've slowed down the war.
 
1943: Turkey joins the axis. Attempts to join the Russian front, makes no significant gains and is stalled in Armenia.
1944: Turkey is bombed by the U.S. and Great Britain.
1945: Turkey is invaded and occupied by the U.S., Great Britain, and the Soviet Union.

Pretty anti-climatic, eh? The U.S. economy was 60 times greater than that of Turkey. Add Great Britain, the USSR, and all of the British colonies, it's about 100 times. So, wiping out Turkey might have been an additional headache, but nothing that would've slowed down the war.

Please go into a little more detail. Your first point, Why would turkey be stalled? I mean they werent a major military power but guns are guns they would do damage. Its not like Russia could spare an invasion force with Germany knocking on their doorstep.
Point 2. The Bombers would have to fuel in bases near Turkey to get close enough to bomb them. Africa is still in contest because The British and Americans havent been able to get the supplies needed to fight off the Germans.
Point 3. This point cant really be broached until points 1 and 2 are better explained
 
Please go into a little more detail. Your first point, Why would turkey be stalled? I mean they werent a major military power but guns are guns they would do damage. Its not like Russia could spare an invasion force with Germany knocking on their doorstep.
Point 2. The Bombers would have to fuel in bases near Turkey to get close enough to bomb them. Africa is still in contest because The British and Americans havent been able to get the supplies needed to fight off the Germans.
Point 3. This point cant really be broached until points 1 and 2 are better explained
Point 2: The UK had some trouble supplying Malta IN the Med. The rest of the theatre was supplied by shipping around Africa and up through the Suez Canal. The Med itself was not an important through route. So while losing Gibraltar would be a set-back, it wouldn't be a disaster of the magnitude your scenario seems to envisage.

But possibly Operation Torch would target Spain as well, at least to retake Gibraltar, alongside French North Africa.

It could be interesting with the Turkish army trying to push into Allied controlled Syria, possible beefed up by a German "Orient Corps", making the Desert War a two-front affair for the Allies. Or for the Allies to go into Turkey the same route.

Mostly I just think things would take longer. Italy in particular would be able to stay in the war longer, as possibly Turkey and Spain would have to be taken out first.
 
Hello everyone ive been wondering for a while how World War 2 would have ended if the Turks allied with Germany and busted up Russia's Caucasus oil fields and Spain also allying with Germany conquers the city of Gibralter. Post a World War 2 timeline of events that happen after Turkey and Spain join the war as an ally of Germany in 1943.

Funny: Turkey actually took part in WW II, in 1945, on the Allied side.

But to keep to the original suggestion: in 1944 Turkey would have definitely been bombed by the USSR.

So, in short there was a good reason Turkey didn't repeat their WW I rôle.
 
No--Spain and Turkey were weaker than Kingdom of Yugoslavia.

Yes, which is why they did not join the war. Spain was weak from the Civil War, and Turkey was industrializing. It wouldn't have made sense for any of them to join the war, and they wouldn't have impacted the outcome either.
 
Spain entering the war would have led to a temporary exchange of territory between the UK and Spain, as Spain and Germany take Gibraltar whilst the allies take the Canary Islands. The loss of Gibraltar might have made the North African campaign and Mediterranean naval war more difficult, but not significantly so.

Then we get to the end of the war. There's a case for Spain being a weak underbelly into Europe compared to France, with a weak Spain becoming a drain on Axis resources and an eventual path into France for the allies. So Spain's entry could have possibly changed the way D-Day and subsequent events unfolded, but I suspect the terrain is too difficult and Iberia too far away for such an alternative European landing to make much sense. However a landing in Catalonia could have been a counterpart to the landing in Italy... the way into France is easier on that side of the peninsula, I think.

There's no telling what the consequences of entering the war would have been for the Franquist regime itself. Maybe it would survive the war, but given that they would have inevitably lost, there could have been a coup against Franco like what happened in Italy against Mussolini.

What happens when Germany loses? Spain entering the war would have gotten the regime irrevocably identified with fascism, essentially confirming the widely held view that the Civil War was a rehearsal of WW2, and the view propagated by the Republicans that the Franquists were pure fascism... and I can't see the allies allowing Franco's regime to remain in power for this reason alone. Even though the war may have conceivably ended with Germany defeated but Spain not being invaded, I'd assume there'd be a surrender and occupation.

Assuming Franco is actually defeated and removed, rather than ignored and left in power after an armistice, the rest of Western Europe becomes a pretty good guide as to what happens next. Basically, the post-war would probably have been similar to the situation in France or Italy - strong left-wing parties, fascist parties (the Falange) banned, some regime elements becoming rehabilitated as conservative patriotic or Christian democratic parrties. However, given the terrible state of the country, I suspect that politics in a post-war Marshall Plan-receiving Spain would have been less smoothly democratic than in other West European countries: maybe following something closer to Latin America's development, more authoritarianism, greater risk of social revolution, etcetera. The social cleavages that played such a role in the Civil War weren't really healed, the country was still very poor and unindustrialised, and dominated by extremely conservative and elitist aristocrats and churchmen.

There's every chance that independent Basque and/or Catalan states may have resulted in the ensuing mess, given that these parties and movements would have been reliable, relatively conservative, non-communist anti-fascists. As for the rest of the country, the moderate conservative analogue to the Christian Democrats in Germany, or the French MRP, would probably have to be people like CEDA - the Catholic centre-right umbrella party from before the war, who backed the Franquists in the civil war but before that were relatively democratically minded. Maybe they would re-emerge as something prefiguring the modern Partido Popular, as eventually happened after Franco died. Maybe former CEDA head José María Gil Robles returns from exile and becomes the Spanish Konrad Adenauer.

Monarchy or republic? Open question, could have gone either way as in Italy.
 
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I would have to agree with most of the points you guys have made. Turkey and Spain were both pretty weak at that point in time and really wouldnt have made much of an impact, more it was their strategic positioning and the idea that they would have lessoned the strain on Germany's army and giving them more time(incedently i just realized that the opposite effect might oocur do to there being more fronts to fight) to fight against their enemies. But Turkey and Spain joining as an axis ally early on would probably be as ridiculous as Mexico joining the war as an axis ally.
 
Mexico joining the war would be far more entertaining though.
 
Yeah well the Germans certainly tried to make cannon fodder out of Mexico to keep us off of them.
 
WW1 Right? Thats what i was talking about.
 
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