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If this isnt overpowered, i dont know what is

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by naf4ever, Sep 8, 2006.

  1. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    FfH follows a different design model than vanilla civ in a lot of ways. One of the things I wanted to remove from the game are the attrition battles and stacks of doom.

    So I tried to center the game around smaller groups of units, an effective attacking force could be as small as 4-8 units. Design changes for this were the building requirements, high costed units, national unit limits, etc etc.

    So if you are ever able to get huge stakcs of units that are as technically advanced or more technically advanced than your opponent, the game is already won. Vanilla civ would put you throught eh war of attrition, costing you units as you plow through their defenses. It can be a slow process but the result is already determined.

    That you lose units doesnt matter. In fact units dont matter. The only thing that truely matters in this game is productivity. If you have out produced your opponent to that level, then casulties dont matter, they will be replaced. You out produced him before and as you take his cites the gap between your and his productivity will increase making the result more and more inevitable.

    But I dont like the grind. I tried to make FfH move faster and be more deadly. I love civ, but I want to get rid of the huge masses of troops you end up with int he late game. I wanted to make the loss of a single unit mean something.

    Anyway, there is definitly a lot of balancing that should be done. And I realize the danger of disposable troops, but I think they are a reasonable threat level in the grand scheme.

    One change I would like to get in is that I want AI players to target exposed casters. I hate the fact that casters with good range can sit back and toss fireballs and summoned creatures against opponents without fear. Hopefully if we can get the ai to be more aggresive in that regard it will help out.
     
  2. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    Well, my only objection to the concept is my games end too soon! :D

    Honest to gods, the ability to to whump opponents like this is the sort of thing you try to create all game. I absolutely love blitzing an oppoent in thie game. There are so many ways to achieve awesome speed on the offensive in FfH. I love blowing foes out of existance in this game. Once you break their backs, you can dispose of them without spending 25+ turns tediously moving across the map to squish the last cities. Your elite giant Spiderrs are already there (for instance.) :D

    I just want this to happen in the endgame with all the Sparatoi and golems and Inquisitors runnning around, and the clock ticking on them crazy armegeddon spells. Right now the midgame units are good enough to absolutely splatter the opposition. Fun, but FfH has set it sights quite high, yes? And we are greedy. It can be even more fun. :D

    Now I gotta say my Hippus game has been a blast. I've been alternating wars between the Clan and Svartalf al game long. Druids, Beastmsters, and (Clan) Hv Crossbowmen have seen lots of action. Everyone else is friendly to me (w/o borders) but I have no idea what they've built. So this could be the game where the cool units engage. :)
     
  3. Unser Giftzwerg

    Unser Giftzwerg UgLe Game Promoter

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    Looks like we were both typing on this thread about the same time. I think my post above demonstrates the depth of my agreement with you about avoiding The Grind. So I skipped over that part of your quote. ;)

    For my money, there is nothing inherenetly wrong with the concept of summoned creatures and spells. It's just a matter of balance.
     
  4. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

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    I agree that it is a matter of balance, but IMO the strength of the summoned troops should not be comparable to a unit you have to build and level. If the system was that you summoned and then were crippled/in recovery/out of mana/whatever for some length of time, it would be different, but you can literally spam those creatures every single turn, and run around while doing it to boot. I always play Amurites, and I always end up with the same trick... spam Sand Lions. Thats it. There is almost always a tile to Scorch to get 'em where I want them to go, even without the Summoner trait - after all, they can run what, 6 squares at least, as long as they start on desert. Basically, so far in my experience, the game is over once I get Summoning, no matter what. It shouldn't end that easily, although I do agree about the grind.

    The issue could also be the way combat promotions carry over, I think. A Strength 5 Sand Lion isnt too scary, but when you get five or six Combat V summoners, they become str 10 sand lions in effect, and best of all they are free. Any stack of normal units will die to them, sooner or later. I still think that a much better and more flavorful way for the promotions to work would be to have a seperate line of them to boost spell effects, like "arcane master I, II, III" each with a 10% bonus (purposefully lower than the combats,) while combat promos would only affect the mage himself.

    But lowering base str would work too, although really, I dont think most people bother with casting spells, for some reason. The majority of FfH players seem to ignore that part of the game. Hopefully I can expose it a bit in MP, if I can give up my foolish determination to keep trying the Luchiurp in spite of repeatedly getting smacked around :D

    edit: too bad the AI never ever builds Summoning Circles. Going to post in AI thread about what they actually do build, though.
     
  5. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    You know I have been needing to add another set of "half-combat promotions" for the golems. So that if Barnaxus has combat 1, all golems mini-combat 1. I never thought about using that same mechanic for summons. Thats probably a good idea.
     
  6. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    Keep in mind that using summons gives your foes a huge xp boost, as they wipe out wave after wave of weak units. Only when you're a tier or so ahead of your rivals do they become so powerful.
     
  7. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    about barnaxus, could maybe the leader shrine be removed for him and make him a national unit? then people could remake him (thus not being eternally crippled) and in multiplayer games where two people have him they could both get him.
     
  8. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

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    Not sure if you were being sarcastic or not Kael. Hope you dont think I'm just trying to make more work for you, heheh. Wouldnt dream of that ^^

    To sum up my feelings on the magic issue, I love the system, but the way the current combat promotions boost Fire attack spells and summons makes most other spells feel relatively useless to me. Sure, some have occasional moments like Bloom, but the difference between a free strength 10 unit every turn and a forest, or the ability to clear fallout, or even the ability to cause fallout, makes all those spells really pale by comparison, once you have tried it. I feel that reducing the bonus Combat gives would bring a little more balance to the spheres. Not perfect, obviously, but every bit helps.

    Chand, it doesnt matter if your unit is getting XP. I will just keep sending the summons until he dies, and he will, sooner or later, if the summoners are well promoted. It took 2 turns to kill Abraxus (the red dragon, think thats his name) with my group of 4 summoners in a game I played and posted about a bit back, although they had Twincast then.

    edit: Please make Barnaxus national... please please... great idea. Although I still probably wont be able to win with Luchiurp :)
     
  9. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    No, he won't. Units restore HP every turn. If I'm just sitting there with a few Str7 units, I don't care how many fireballs you send at me, I'm just going to keep on getting XP from the battles. Until I can attack your caster, that is.

    Edit: about Acheron, if you have four tier-4 units that are all level 8 (they'd have to be to have summoner spells and twincast), then I think you deserve to kill him.
     
  10. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    the divine circle of fire spells are pretty nice too

    but really, you should check hamachi messages and show the strength :D
     
  11. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    No I was being very serious.

    The advantage of halving the combat promotions goelms get from barnaxus is that I can raise the base str of the golems a bit, so the Luchurip aren't as cripple without him.

    I won't make Barnaxus a national unit. But I might consider having the unit that defeats him get "Pieces of Barnaxus", a promotion that is passed around like orthus's axe. Then if you beat that unit, get the pieces back and take them to one of your cities, they can be used to rebuild barnaxus.
     
  12. Sureshot

    Sureshot Goddess

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    that would be so much cooler, i just didnt want to say anything that would be lots of work :p

    but what about units being disbanded? i forsee people killing him then disbanding the unit that killed him.. could something like passing the promo to the nearest unit happen in that case?
     
  13. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Probably not. It owuld have to be one of those 95% things. If barnaxus was killed by a fireball or a summoned creature he would be gone forever (or if human player wanted to be particuarly mean).
     
  14. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

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    That would be really, really cool.

    Chand, with Amurites and thier Arcane leader, and the right civics, getting 4 level 8 casters is the work of about 8-10 turns.. The Cave of Ancestors is a very very nice building. I usually end up with way more casters than I want to deal with promoting, heh. And obviously its different if you have the Mithril Golem or something.
     
  15. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    I checked in the Empower promotion line I - V. They are mini-combat promotions that grant +10% instead of +20%. Right now I have them being pased out with spellcatsers instead of combat and from barnaxus. Its working nicely.

    Tomorrow I'll probably add in the popup and mechanics around recovering barnaxus's pieces. It should be fun.
     
  16. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

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    damn, you're fast :O

    I love this barnaxus thing, heh. cant wait to see it action
     
  17. Chandrasekhar

    Chandrasekhar Determined

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    It's tier-3 units vs. tier-3 units. If you happen to have a Civ specialized in them (i.e. Hippus horse archers), then you're going to win. Getting level 8 summoners for another Civ takes a bit longer.

    Edit: whoops, forgot we were talking about Acheron here. Still, if you have a Civ that specializes in a particular type of unit, you're going to find that using that kind of unit will get you better results. Three immortals or three druids (or three Spartiatoi!) would have no problem at all taking on Acheron).
     
  18. Quetz

    Quetz The Tallest Lilliputian

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    conjurers arent tier 3... i'm just talkin about sand lions ;)
     
  19. naf4ever

    naf4ever Dread Lord

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    Been playing more games. Ive tried one game where i mass produced conjurors that use the chaos marauder when im the summon trait. This is extremely powerful but balanced more so than ritualists since it still takes a lot of effort and money to grow your adepts into conjurors.

    Also it appears Kael has built into the game many ways for a player to defend against summons. Problem is it seems like the AI has no clue how to really utilize these things.... Not sure what can be done about that. hmmm.
     
  20. Kael

    Kael Deity

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    Its strange what things are fast and what take forever. This was easy. But I spent 2 days just getting units to say they require certain civics and techs to say they require certain religions.
     

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