If World leaders were D & D alignments

[AmazonQueen]

Following on from your nazi example, its interesting to look at different people (and their potential alignments) and whether they colluded or resisted the regime. Here are some musings:

General von staufenberg - Lawful Good - Was lawful neutral up until the point he decided to try and assassinate Hitler


Contrasted with:

Adolf Eichmann - Lawful Neutral - the atypical military bureaucrat who followed his orders to the letter regardless of what they were

Communists - chaotic good - hated the regime and everything it stood for. Tried to subvert it to build a 'better' future

Contrasted with:

Catholics - True Neutral - looked after their own mainly - and turned a blind eye to the horrors of the regime

Social democrats - Neutral good - resisted the regime - some ended up in concentration camps, others didnt.

Oscar Schindler - Lawful good - was lawful neutral until he started to resist the regime

Karl Leibknicht and Rosa Luxemberg - chaotic good - communist leaders who tried to build a better future - were murdered by the far right Freikorps

It gets even more interesting if you were then to contrast that with Soviet Russia during the same period. Ironically in that instance you may well have people like:

Trotsky - Chaotic good
Lenin - Chaotic good (it pains me to even say that)

I think Stalin probably started off as lawful evil, and ended up neutral evil.

Well Stauffenberg had no real problems with Hitler until it became obvious how badly they were losing the war. Same as Rommel. Not many heros in the Wehrmacht.

Eichmann was a committed anti-Semite, ok more of a bureaucratic one than a headbashing one.

Catholics: Generally agree although there were exceptions like von Galen. Its record was probably better than the Lutherans, there was no Catholic equivilent to the Reich Church

Social Democrats: Individuals with individual reactions

Oscar Schlinder: In D&D terms started off true neutral, only interested in personal profit, ended up chaotic good, working against the regime

Since Stalin started off as a professional revolutionary and bank robber lawful evil seems unlikely to me

Where does someone like Artur Nebe fit? Took part in 38 and 44 plots against Hitler. also commanded an Einsatzgruppen.
Most people aren't good or bad all the time.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well Stauffenberg had no real problems with Hitler until it became obvious how badly they were losing the war. Same as Rommel. Not many heros in the Wehrmacht.

Eichmann was a committed anti-Semite, ok more of a bureaucratic one than a headbashing one.

Catholics: Generally agree although there were exceptions like von Galen. Its record was probably better than the Lutherans, there was no Catholic equivilent to the Reich Church

Social Democrats: Individuals with individual reactions

Oscar Schlinder: In D&D terms started off true neutral, only interested in personal profit, ended up chaotic good, working against the regime

Since Stalin started off as a professional revolutionary and bank robber lawful evil seems unlikely to me

Where does someone like Artur Nebe fit? Took part in 38 and 44 plots against Hitler. also commanded an Einsatzgruppen.
Most people aren't good or bad all the time.

Nebe would be evil, his attempts to replace Hitler were likely more to save his own skin than any moral reason.

Stauffenberg was anti Hitler very early on and was against him from 1941 while Germany was still winning, although perhaps he was one of the earliest to figure out the war was lost in December 41. I would make him LG though he wanted to replace Hitler with a military regime and sue for peace with the west and get the best deal he could in the east. They tried using what they could in the Reich apparatus to replace the Nazis hence they tried to use the home army to replace the Nazis.

 

[sherbz]

Yeah staufenberg could quite easily have from LN to LG and then back to LN again

 

[AmazonQueen]

With a few exceptions like von Kleist (although he was a Freikorps member) or Niemoller I can't see many Germans in the WWII period as good, just not necessarily evil
Most of us struggle along, making compromises here and there, within the general context of the society we live within
Somewhere like Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia it was a lot harder to be a decent person than in modern UK (for all its faults)

 

[sherbz]

With a few exceptions like von Kleist (although he was a Freikorps member) or Niemoller I can't see many Germans in the WWII period as good, just not necessarily evil
Most of us struggle along, making compromises here and there, within the general context of the society we live within
Somewhere like Nazi Germany or Stalin's Russia it was a lot harder to be a decent person than in modern UK (for all its faults)

Whilst true, i dont think people deviate too much from their real "alignment". I have known and do know plenty of people who are blind patriots to the law and consider anyone who offers an alternative view as pure heretics - and that definitely includes those who classify as lawful good. A current day example perhaps worth using is someone who is "good" but refuses to speak to, acknowledge, or even address groups like Hamas. As they see them as chaotic and criminal usurpers (and indeed they are, in some respects - a true chaotic neutral/good (IMO) being). Are they "evil"? No i dont think so - and thats true for all parties concerned.

What is of course relevant is the context which you put them in. And rightly so its difficult to predict how people will actually behave. Whilst it might be nicely ordered and simple if we think all lawful good characters act in a pure and defined way, i think actually a different scenario will unfold (im speaking here unashamedly as someone who identifies as neutral good). I think for many people the "Lawful" trumps the "good", and they act accordingly. Does that make them a bad person? No i dont think so. And thats an uncomfortable reality for people who have studied genocide (as i have - one of my faults). The fact is that many normal and law abiding people did. I personally consider them sheep, but thats me speaking not an objective overseer

 

[sherbz]

Good characters in Germany WW2 tend to be the not well knowns IMO:

- The protestant churchman who sheltered Jews
- The ones who offered passive resistance (most social democrats would fall in this bracket)
- Many catholics too - were never Nazis and also helped out (sometimes) where they could

I would however throw most communists under the bracket of "good" too. They were probably chaotic good - they hated the regime, wanted it destroyed to achieve what they considered a greater good.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Whilst true, i dont think people deviate too much from their real "alignment". I have known and do know plenty of people who are blind patriots to the law and consider anyone who offers an alternative view as pure heretics - and that definitely includes those who classify as lawful good. A current day example perhaps worth using is someone who is "good" but refuses to speak to, acknowledge, or even address groups like Hamas. As they see them as chaotic and criminal usurpers (and indeed they are, in some respects - a true chaotic neutral/good (IMO) being). Are they "evil"? No i dont think so - and thats true for all parties concerned.

What is of course relevant is the context which you put them in. And rightly so its difficult to predict how people will actually behave. Whilst it might be nicely ordered and simple if we think all lawful good characters act in a pure and defined way, i think actually a different scenario will unfold (im speaking here unashamedly as someone who identifies as neutral good). I think for many people the "Lawful" trumps the "good", and they act accordingly. Does that make them a bad person? No i dont think so. And thats an uncomfortable reality for people who have studied genocide (as i have - one of my faults). The fact is that many normal and law abiding people did. I personally consider them sheep, but thats me speaking not an objective overseer

I'm not sure what sense you can talk about someones real alignment if they just go along with evil.
I'm not claiming I'd be good in those circumstances, I think its like being brave or self-controlled, you can't tell until you're tested and day-to-day life for most people doesn't test them on those types of issues. So if someone spends their time acting lawful good when its easy but gives in when sticking with that belief might have cost them something were they ever really lawful good?

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm not sure what sense you can talk about someones real alignment if they just go along with evil.
I'm not claiming I'd be good in those circumstances, I think its like being brave or self-controlled, you can't tell until you're tested and day-to-day life for most people doesn't test them on those types of issues. So if someone spends their time acting lawful good when its easy but gives in when sticking with that belief might have cost them something were they ever really lawful good?

Most people aren't suicidal. If you think you are a good person IRL feel free to go to Saudi Arabia or North Korea and preach against the evils of sharia law or totalitarian regimes.

Good can still be cowardly or even cautious enough they don't want to get killed or persecuted.

 

[AmazonQueen]

Most people aren't suicidal. If you think you are a good person IRL feel free to go to Saudi Arabia or North Korea and preach against the evils of sharia law or totalitarian regimes.

Good can still be cowardly or even cautious enough they don't want to get killed or persecuted.

I don't think thinking you're good is enough. If you actually want to be classed as good then yes, it requires some action.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think thinking you're good is enough. If you actually want to be classed as good then yes, it requires some action.

And all the people who tried something either ended up dead/arrested, failed or left. You didn't even have enough food to share unless you were rich and could buy it on the black market. Even ig you were rich your options were mostly use your connections to convince a local Nazi to turn a blind eye, brivbe them to do whatever, or buy stuff on the black markets and/or help people flee. If you weren't rich you would be risking your life assuming you weren't a male and drafted into the army already.

You also can't trust your kids due to them blabbing at school you might be able to trust a spouse or close friend but you would be gambling with your life. Some low level dissent was tolerated or you might not get killed but actively working against the regime you're in trouble if you get get. No one would lift a finger when you get the midnight knock on the door from the Gestapo.

In Stalins Russia even low level dissent was not tolerated.

 

[sherbz]

I'm not sure what sense you can talk about someones real alignment if they just go along with evil.
I'm not claiming I'd be good in those circumstances, I think its like being brave or self-controlled, you can't tell until you're tested and day-to-day life for most people doesn't test them on those types of issues. So if someone spends their time acting lawful good when its easy but gives in when sticking with that belief might have cost them something were they ever really lawful good?

This actually reminded me about the end of my dissertation. And because of that i will quote myself (sort of - i can do that right?):

‘With the rest of my generation I firmly believed that the ends justified the means. Our great goal was the universal triumph of communism, and for the sake of that goal everything was permissible – to lie, to steal, to destroy hundreds of thousands and even millions of people, all those who were hindering our work or could hinder it, everyone who stood in the way. And to hesitate or doubt about all this was to give in to intellectual squeamishness and stupid liberalism, the attributes of people who could not see the forest from the trees…

In the terrible spring of 1933 I saw people dying from hunger. I saw women and children with distended bellies, turning blue, still breathing but with vacant, lifeless eyes. And corpses – corpses in ragged sheepskin coats and cheap felt boots; corpses in peasant huts, in the melting snow of Vologda, under the bridges of Kharkov. I saw all this and did not go out of my mind or commit suicide… Nor did I lose my faith. As before, I believed because I wanted to believe. Thus from time immemorial men have believed when possessed by a desire to serve powers and values above and beyond humanity: gods, emperors, states; ideals of virtue, freedom, nation, race, class, party.’

This person participated in all that. At the time he "thought" he was doing good, but realised in the end he wasn't. And this was one of his reflections (good book if you are interested - the gulag archipelago). In D&D terms (it seems crass to think of it in such circumstances), but i would consider him at first lawful good (as he was doing the bidding of the ruling party). But then he ended up being chaotic or maybe neutral good (as he was interred, and then wrote his criticisms as penned in the book).

 

[sherbz]

And all the people who tried something either ended up dead/arrested, failed or left. You didn't even have enough food to share unless you were rich and could buy it on the black market. Even ig you were rich your options were mostly use your connections to convince a local Nazi to turn a blind eye, brivbe them to do whatever, or buy stuff on the black markets and/or help people flee. If you weren't rich you would be risking your life assuming you weren't a male and drafted into the army already.

You also can't trust your kids due to them blabbing at school you might be able to trust a spouse or close friend but you would be gambling with your life. Some low level dissent was tolerated or you might not get killed but actively working against the regime you're in trouble if you get get. No one would lift a finger when you get the midnight knock on the door from the Gestapo.

In Stalins Russia even low level dissent was not tolerated.

Spoken like a true neutral

 

[Zardnaar]

Spoken like a true neutral

Most people are probably neutral even if they think of themselves as good. Sure I donate to charities, help my friends and family, and strangers.

In Nazi Germany wouldn't you be better off waiting for the war to end then help rebuild in the image you want rather than get yourself killed (especially if you're not one of the elite).

Personally I would probably get myself in trouble telling some wing nut to F off and get reported. I would probably be the keep mouth shut, turn a blind eye to anyone I saw working against the regime, and play dumb if I lived in Nazi Germany (and leaving wasn't an option to poor or whatever etc).

Realistically I would probably be in the army, with a degree maybe an low level officer.

 

[sherbz]

I would probably have been chaotic good (even though at heart i wish i could be neutral good). Thats not me eulogizing myself - id probably be dead. At school i was always the smart mouth. I always questioned everything. And if people over stepped the mark (in my own moral code) then there was all hell to pay. One year i got given a detention by the teacher for egging her house (i didnt do it). Next year, despite her warnings she had CCTV, i nuked the oblivion out of that house for the insult of the year before. And to circumvent her CCTV i bought a halloween mask from the local shop and bought all my eggs from the local chip shop, whose owner happened to be a chinese immigrant who was more concerned with firstly money, and secondly peace and quiet. The next day i made (or my actions did) front page news. I feel quite proud of that moment, even though it may be characterised as an act of vandalism. Was that evil? Was it good? I dont know. I just impulsively acted as i saw fit (as an immature teen). I would imagine that a very different, but somewhat similar, scenario would have emerged if i had been living in the third reich

 

[Zardnaar]

I would probably have been chaotic good (even though at heart i wish i could be neutral good). Thats not me eulogizing myself - id probably be dead. At school i was always the smart mouth. I always questioned everything. And if people over stepped the mark (in my own moral code) then there was all hell to pay. One year i got given a detention by the teacher for egging her house (i didnt do it). Next year, despite her warnings she had CCTV, i nuked the oblivion out of that house for the insult of the year before. And to circumvent her CCTV i bought a halloween mask from the local shop and bought all my eggs from the local chip shop, whose owner happened to be a chinese immigrant who was more concerned with firstly money, and secondly peace and quiet. The next day i made (or my actions did) front page news. I feel quite proud of that moment, even though it may be characterised as an act of vandalism. Was that evil? Was it good? I dont know. I just impulsively acted as i saw fit (as an immature teen). I would imagine that a very different, but somewhat similar, scenario would have emerged if i had been living in the third reich

I would say that would be you being a teen. We went roof rattling which was throwing stones on a roof at night.

Third Reich you probably couldn't afford to throw eggs in the war years. They were rationed. One of my relief teachers in 89 was Czech and when he was a teenager during the occupation they broke into a Gestapo building that had a fancy feat spread out for the Germans so they went down the table helping themselves and throwing the rest on the floor.

 

[sherbz]

I would say that would be you being a teen. We went roof rattling which was throwing stones on a roof at night.

Third Reich you probably couldn't afford to throw eggs in the war years. They were rationed. One of my relief teachers in 89 was Czech and when he was a teenager during the occupation they broke into a Gestapo building that had a fancy feat spread out for the Germans so they went down the table helping themselves and throwing the rest on the floor.

I like to think i was quite creative in my destructive phase as a teen. Like when the local residents protested against a canal - and hung a sign off the estate wall which read "NO CANAL"! So i, with the help of PVC, snuck out at 3AM and plastered over their sign with WHITE PAPER (on the "C" only). The next day there was a newspaper interview at the alleged scene and the lead protestor (who also happened to be the person whose house i egged - the aforementioned teacher) was so incensed at my alteration, he proceeded to rip off the offending "C" and as a consequence ripped off the previously offending sign!. Glorious! I would have clapped but was blissfully unaware being that the interview was at 9 AM and no self respecting teenager was awake before 11AM.

 

[Zardnaar]

I like to think i was quite creative in my destructive phase as a teen. Like when the local residents protested against a canal - and hung a sign off the estate wall which read "NO CANAL"! So i, with the help of PVC, snuck out at 3AM and plastered over their sign with WHITE PAPER (on the "C" only). The next day there was a newspaper interview at the alleged scene and the lead protestor (who also happened to be the person whose house i egged - the aforementioned teacher) was so incensed at my alteration, he proceeded to rip off the offending "C" and as a consequence ripped off the previously offending sign!. Glorious! I would have clapped but was blissfully unaware being that the interview was at 9 AM and no self respecting teenager was awake before 11AM.

11am thats early. Getting up at the crack of noon is more like it. Actually back then we played D&D from 11am one day throguh to 1-2pm the next.

I also tried making gunpoweder and smoke bombs. If you mix the active ingredient of gunpowder with 1/3rd sugar makes a good smoke bomb.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

Most of my characters are good aligned, none of them are paragons of virtue and kindness. My LG Paladin sometimes kills evil-aligned characters that pose no threat to himself. He is also extremely vainglorious. He once insulted his temporary employer by expressing his disapproval at “protecting a den of sin, debauchery and usury” (a casino); he also insulted his commanding officer after detecting her as evil, asking her “what drew you to evil?” My NG wizard was a suck-up, liked to Charm, and a know-it-all. His first scenario, he stole silverwear from a dead rich man (who was dead before he got there) in an anarchic city. I decided to make him N after he sold his emotions to a hag in Dis.

 

[sherbz]

11am thats early. Getting up at the crack of noon is more like it. Actually back then we played D&D from 11am one day throguh to 1-2pm the next.

I also tried making gunpoweder and smoke bombs. If you mix the active ingredient of gunpowder with 1/3rd sugar makes a good smoke bomb.

Best i ever saw was putting a can of air freshener in a bonfire and then shooting it with an air rifle. It was like a nuclear bomb!

 

[AmazonQueen]

This actually reminded me about the end of my dissertation. And because of that i will quote myself (sort of - i can do that right?):



This person participated in all that. At the time he "thought" he was doing good, but realised in the end he wasn't. And this was one of his reflections (good book if you are interested - the gulag archipelago). In D&D terms (it seems crass to think of it in such circumstances), but i would consider him at first lawful good (as he was doing the bidding of the ruling party). But then he ended up being chaotic or maybe neutral good (as he was interred, and then wrote his criticisms as penned in the book).

Defnitely you can quote yourself. I would if I could remember back to the days when I wrote stuff.
And I'm aware of the author you quote although I've only read One Day In the Life of Ivan Denisovich by him.
I think as my life goes on I've gotten more mistrustful of people who claim to be doing good in big ways and more care about the little things.
So to take my earlier example of the Nazi who ended up working in a childrens home and ended up protecting disabled children against the Nazis that does count for a lot.
Because in certain circumstances we could all act in ways we would or should be ashamed of. So as well as thinking about how we would act in those extreme circumstances we should think about how we can avoid circumstances where we have those sorts of choices to make ever arising. Which takes me back to the political choices we make on which I have strong opinions I shan't bore you with.