IGN: "Civilization 7 Dev Firaxis Says 'There's Hope for Gandhi, Yet'"

[Stoic]

I consider it blasphemous not to have included Montezuma and the Aztecs, always present from Civ 1

 

[queenpea]

I consider it blasphemous not to have included Montezuma and the Aztecs, always present from Civ 1

Yeah the Aztecs were definitely never DLC you have a good point.

 

[Graethyenne]

For those unaware that Ada Lovelace (and her contribution to computing) exist in pop culture as well as history books, I link you this https://www.laurengunderson.com/all-plays/ada-and-the-engine

 

[TheGrayFox]

For those unaware that Ada Lovelace (and her contribution to computing) exist in pop culture as well as history books, I link you this https://www.laurengunderson.com/all-plays/ada-and-the-engine

Why would we care about some relatively unknown stageplay which literally makes a historical claim that is objectively not true?

Lovelace didn't write the first computer program, Babbage is literally responsible for writing all the code she is incorrectly cited as having wrote/created. She is only responsible for publishing Babbage work and her contributions to that work were entirely theoretical in nature. The equivalent of notes written on the side of someone else's work

 

[queenpea]

Why would we care about some relatively unknown stageplay which literally makes a historical claim that is objectively not true?

Lovelace didn't write the first computer program, Babbage is literally responsible for writing all the code she is incorrectly cited as having wrote/created. She is only responsible for publishing Babbage work and her contributions to that work were entirely theoretical in nature. The equivalent of notes written on the side of someone else's work

I don’t think it’s necessary to be so dismissive of someone contributing to the thread in such a way that doesn’t interest you personally.

I guess, out of curiosity, if you could rank your sources of anger from 1-10, what are you most upset about?

A) GB not included in base game
B) The inclusion of Ada Lovelace
C) The design of GB as revealed so far (Battersea Power Station as wonder, suggesting they are science-focused.)
D) The cost of DLC

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Yeah the Aztecs were definitely never DLC you have a good point.

Technically they were free day one DLC in Civ 6 if you pre-ordered the game.

 

[TheGrayFox]

I don’t think it’s necessary to be so dismissive of someone contributing to the thread in such a way that doesn’t interest you personally.

I guess, out of curiosity, if you could rank your sources of anger from 1-10, what are you most upset about?

A) GB not included in base game
B) The inclusion of Ada Lovelace
C) The design of GB as revealed so far (Battersea Power Station as wonder, suggesting they are science-focused.)
D) The cost of DLC

It might come off as dismissive and I'm sorry because I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone but in this case it's kind of the truth

He's linking a pop culture reference making an objectively incorrect historical claim about the figure in question and telling people to use this obscure feminist stage play as a reference to her "contributions" to the field of computing and her popularity in pop culture (even though most would be completely unaware of the existence of this play). if people actually want to learn about Lovelace they're better off just reading her wikipedia article....

but to satiate your curiousity

A 8/10
B. 8/10
C. 0/10
D. 9/10

 

[queenpea]

It might come off as dismissive and I'm sorry because I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone but in this case it's kind of the truth

He's linking a pop culture reference making an objectively incorrect historical claim about the figure in question and telling people to use this obscure stage play as a reference to her "contributions" to the field of computing and her popularity in pop culture (even though most would be completely unaware of the existence of this play). if people actually want to learn about Lovelace they're better off just reading her wikipedia article....

but to satiate your curiousity

A 8/10
B. 8/10
C. 0/10
D. 9/10

Thanks for responding. I get how it might seem off topic to you, but frankly all of this is very off topic. This is a thread started about Gandhi perhaps appearing in future DLC.

Somehow, it always comes back to GB no matter the topic.

 

[sonicmyst]

Just put it on your wishlist and move on with your life. The repeated argument about Britain is so exhausting already. Same with Lovelace.

By next month I will be welcoming Britain and Lovelace with open arms and open hearts.

Happy hearts day. How I wish Eleanor of France was here to send you more flowers.

 

[queenpea]

Just put it on your wishlist and move on with your life. The repeated argument about Britain is so exhausting already. Same with Lovelace.

By next month I will be welcoming Britain and Lovelace with open arms and open hearts.

Happy hearts day. How I wish Eleanor of France was here to send you more flowers.

I do miss Eleanor and her Court of Love and her flower wreath.

 

[Graethyenne]

It might come off as dismissive and I'm sorry because I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone but in this case it's kind of the truth

He's linking a pop culture reference making an objectively incorrect historical claim about the figure in question and telling people to use this obscure stage play as a reference to her "contributions" to the field of computing and her popularity in pop culture (even though most would be completely unaware of the existence of this play). if people actually want to learn about Lovelace they're better off just reading her wikipedia article....

but to satiate your curiousity

A 8/10
B. 8/10
C. 0/10
D. 9/10

Apology accepted and appreciated (even if you did undermine its efficacy a smidge in your follow up).

Moving on, I *have* read her wikipedia page and it is far less one-sided in its evaluation of her contributions than you have been in this thread. I had presumed, given you vehemence that you were *much* more familiar with her (at least having researched and written about her at the collegiate level) than perhaps you are.

As an aside, I did sound design for a production of the play I linked and the director had reems of research on Ada, Babbage, Byron and probably Mary Sommerville as well, and in fact took her entire cast and some of the crew (sadly I was unavailable) to a relevant exhibit that was in San Francisco at the time (apologies I have since forgotten the name). Suffice to say her conclusions differed quite a bit from those you have expressed here.

So I suppose we are each left to chart our on course on this one....

 

[TheGrayFox]

Apology accepted and appreciated (even if you did undermine its efficacy a smidge in your follow up).

Moving on, I *have* read her wikipedia page and it is far less one-sided in its evaluation of her contributions than you have been in this thread. I had presumed, given you vehemence that you were *much* more familiar with her (at least having researched and written about her at the collegiate level) than perhaps you are.

Oh then where does wikipedia claim that Lovelace had definitively wrote the first computer program? I see one statement that "many claim her work on Babbage's machine was the first program" followed by a statement contradicting that claim with three citations. Then there's a section about her publishing the first program, which addresses that this is the reason why she's often regarded as the first computer programmer which ends with the statement that the engine in question was never built or tested followed by an entire section over the "controversy over her contributions" with tons of dedicated biographers, academics, scientist, and historians of science being cited as saying "no she did not write the first program" but I don't see where the article concludes that she wrote the first program.

Also while I'll reiterate that I'm not trying to insult you and I'm sorry if you think I'm being dismissive. I'll object to the framing my opposition here as vehemence, I'm not even the one who first brought up Lovelace, I'm simply responding to others, and she really is a microcosm of a greater problem I have with VII. I don't care that much about her specifically.

As an aside, I did sound design for a production of the play I linked and the director had reems of research on Ada, Babbage, Byron and probably Mary Sommerville as well, and in fact took her entire cast and some of the crew (sadly I was unavailable) to a relevant exhibit that was in San Francisco at the time (apologies I have since forgotten the name). Suffice to say her conclusions differed quite a bit from those you have expressed here.

So I suppose we are each left to chart our on course on this one....

Oh that's cool that you worked on the production and I mean that unironically. I still don't know how thorough or unbiased the director's research was if the end conclusion was that Lovelace wrote the first computer program but that sounds like an interesting job.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Thanks for responding. I get how it might seem off topic to you, but frankly all of this is very off topic. This is a thread started about Gandhi perhaps appearing in future DLC.

Somehow, it always comes back to GB no matter the topic.

Gandhi technically could also be considered a British leader.

Then again, any leader can lead Great Britain in Civ 7 when it comes out.

 

[Graethyenne]

Oh then where does wikipedia claim that Lovelace had definitively wrote the first computer program? I see one statement that "many claim her work on Babbage's machine was the first program" followed by a statement contradicting that claim with three citations. Then there's a section about her publishing the first program, which addresses that this is the reason why she's often regarded as the first computer programmer which ends with the statement that the engine in question was never built or tested followed by an entire section over the "controversy over her contributions" with tons of dedicated biographers, academics, scientist, and historians of science being cited as saying "no she did not write the first program" but I don't see where the article concludes that she wrote the first program.

Also while I'll reiterate that I'm not trying to insult you and I'm sorry if you think I'm being dismissive. I'll object to the framing my opposition here as vehemence, I'm not even the one who first brought up Lovelace, I'm simply responding to others, and she really is a microcosm of a greater problem I have with VII. I don't care that much about her specifically.



Oh that's cool that you worked on the production and I mean that unironically. I still don't know how thorough or unbiased the director's research was if the end conclusion was that Lovelace wrote the first computer program but that sounds like an interesting job.

There is plenty of argument even on her wikipedia page about what she did or didn't contribute. But the whole of it at least makes a credible argument that her contributions were potentially significant. Her ideas, analysis, and refinement, including her "Notes* seemed to be more than the idles of a wealthy bored housewife. And my understanding of academic collaboration of the era is that even if Babbage did all of the end points, it is entirely possible that he never would have reached them without gifted collaborators such as Ada Lovelace.

So while I will make no claim to certain knowledge of what happened within the arc of their collaboration, given what we do know, and what is debated, I guess she just seems like the wrong poster child for "unworthy within the new paradigm". As you said, you never meant to live or die on this hill, so maybe that's it then.

Yeah the show was pretty great. The only bummer was that I had auditioned for Babbage and they went with the taller guy. Which they almost always do (and credit where it's do he was great and had a prior working relationship with the actress who was cast as Ada. So while they weren't a package deal per se, they were a compelling duo for sure). Height is, and I kid you not, one of the central nudges that got me into Voice over. Nobody cares about your height in the booth. And now that I have drifted completely off topic I am going to cut myself off.

Cheers!

 

[TheGrayFox]

There is plenty of argument even on her wikipedia page about what she did or didn't contribute. But the whole of it at least makes a credible argument that her contributions were potentially significant. Her ideas, analysis, and refinement, including her "Notes* seemed to be more than the idles of a wealthy bored housewife. And my understanding of academic collaboration of the era is that even if Babbage did all of the end points, it is entirely possible that he never would have reached them without gifted collaborators such as Ada Lovelace.

We'll you're interpreting what I said with a little bit less charity than I think anything I've stated warrants.. Though Ada was infact a wealthy housewife, I wouldn't simply define her as such and have not (that was someone else).. I think she is an intellectual of her time, her work withh Babbage is interesting, and I do think she was ahead of her time in her theorizing the eventual applications of computer programming, she'd make a great Great Person but in the case of the claim that she had written and was the first computer programmer...? No, Babbage had been writing rudimentary programs for his theoretical machine before Lovelace was even aware of its design and this fact can be found in academic source after source. Which is why there is even a controversy over her contributions in the first place.

So while I will make no claim to certain knowledge of what happened within the arc of their collaboration, given what we do know, and what is debated, I guess she just seems like the wrong poster child for "unworthy within the new paradigm". As you said, you never meant to live or die on this hill, so maybe that's it then.

Well again I think you think I'm more fixated on Lovelace than I really am. She's not the poster child for anything in my eyes. I think she is as equally unworthy as Ibn Battuta, Tubman, and Macchievelli. I even think Franklin is a poor choice too (though atleast in his case he was a founding father)

Yeah the show was pretty great. The only bummer was that I had auditioned for Babbage and they went with the taller guy. Which they almost always do (and credit where it's do he was great and had a prior working relationship with the actress who was cast as Ada. So while they weren't a package deal per se, they were a compelling duo for sure). Height is, and I kid you not, one of the central nudges that got me into Voice over. Nobody cares about your height in the booth. And now that I have drifted completely off topic I am going to cut myself off.

Cheers!

That's a shame. I did actually look into the production (again I apologize if you or anyone thought I was just trying to dismiss it outright). It seems that the director's vision of making the play a romantic story about unrequited love between the two would play into decision to cast a taller male lead. Sucks when factors outside of your control restrict oppurtunies, though sound design doesn't seem to bad a place to fall into either.

Cheers!

 

[timmychompchomp]

This site is conspiring to gaslight me into thinking that nobody knows who Ada Lovelace is and I REFUSE to succumb!

I had to look her up after the announcement. After reading about her, I find her an “interesting”, but relevant addition.

Here are the reasons I believe I’ve never heard of her: I am American. I am 50+. I am not a programmer.

computers were not a common thing in schools when I was growing up. The internet was just starting up when I graduated. I was a GATE student, academic Olympian, was proposed to skip a grade, and a state recognized creative writing award winner. If she was being taugh at the time, I would have heard of her. I think my ignorance of her and her work is relative to my geographical location and the correlation between my school years and emergence of the pc.

 

[Graethyenne]

We'll you're interpreting what I said with a little bit less charity than I think anything I've stated warrants.. Though Ada was infact a wealthy housewife, I wouldn't simply define her as such and have not (that was someone else).. I think she is an intellectual of her time, her work withh Babbage is interesting, and I do think she was ahead of her time in her theorizing the eventual applications of computer programming, she'd make a great Great Person but in the case of the claim that she had written and was the first computer programmer...? No, Babbage had been writing rudimentary programs for his theoretical machine before Lovelace was even aware of its design and this fact can be found in academic source after source. Which is why there is even a controversy over her contributions in the first place.



Well again I think you think I'm more fixated on Lovelace than I really am. She's not the poster child for anything in my eyes. I think she is as equally unworthy as Ibn Battuta, Tubman, and Macchievelli. I even think Franklin is a poor choice too (though atleast in his case he was a founding father)



That's a shame. I did actually look into the production (again I apologize if you or anyone thought I was just trying to dismiss it outright). It seems that the director's vision of making the play a romantic story about unrequited love between the two would play into decision to cast a taller male lead. Sucks when factors outside of your control restrict oppurtunies, though sound design doesn't seem to bad a place to fall into either.

Cheers!

Yeah the conversation (which I don't think is fair to try to just pin to you) really seems to coalesced around Ada rather than the other non-heads of state. And I apologize for attributing that hobbyist angle to you, when it was someone else. I never want undermine a conversation with mistakes like that, and I would never do it deliberately. Clarity appreciated I think this one is fully explored!

Yeah, romantic leads are always tall (except for Tom Cruise apparently!). I love sound design and it was a great show to work on. I fell into sound design about a decade ago, because I was tired of performing in productions that didn't put the effort into good design. And sound engineering is part and parcel with my audiobook and other VO work so it all ties together. All in all, I fortunate to get to do this stuff, so I am never gonna complain or bemoan "only sound designer". Would I rather be in stage? Generally. But I have a blast designing too, so it's really a win/win.

 

[trev1972]

It might come off as dismissive and I'm sorry because I'm genuinely not trying to insult anyone but in this case it's kind of the truth

He's linking a pop culture reference making an objectively incorrect historical claim about the figure in question and telling people to use this obscure feminist stage play as a reference to her "contributions" to the field of computing and her popularity in pop culture (even though most would be completely unaware of the existence of this play). if people actually want to learn about Lovelace they're better off just reading her wikipedia article....

but to satiate your curiousity

A 8/10
B. 8/10
C. 0/10
D. 9/10

That shows that even among brits we have different feelings i guess, i wouldnt say i am angry about anything. I just wont buy the game until it is on a sale.
I am disappointed that they want me to spend another £25.00 to play Britain but if we are going to have scientist leaders i have made my peace with Ada.
I still prefer scientists as great people but if England or Britain had been in base game and maps had looked good etc, it would have been fine.

I know there is some debate about her contribution btw, but i also think women of the time didn't get full credit for the work they did do and had a challenge even pursuing a scientific career. I think that continued into the 20th century
Rosalind Franklin comes to mind as a strong example (i am curious how you would have reacted if they picked Franklin)

On the other hand i find battersea to be a really odd choice of wonder, i would have picked the Iron Bridge, or London Underground or maybe something to do with the railways.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

On the other hand i find battersea to be a really odd choice of wonder, i would have picked the Iron Bridge, or London Underground or maybe something to do with the railways.

When I think of Great Britain my mind always goes towards Big Ben and I do find it disappointing that they would choose something like the Battersea over it.

Based off of screenshots it looks like they will have a unique quarter with the Royal Exchange as a building. I've been thinking that an Underground Station could be the other building to create a "Bank Junction" unique quarter.

 

[Siptah]

Battersea is the first thing that comes to mind for me when I think 20th century building in Britain. It is very famous and rather unique. That said, I would have preferred the Crystal Palace