Illicit Resources (i.e. opium)

[Dom Pedro II]

I also find it interesting, panzooka, how you support slaves being in the game (even going so far as to say they'd be a "nice addition") but not opium.... eventhough millions of Africans died aboard slave ships in some of the most horrific conditions any human being has ever been subjected to ever... only to arrive in the New World and for the first years be worked virtually to death... and even once slavemasters started treating them slightly more humanely, they still faced whippings, having their families split apart on a whim and several hundred years of degradation and humiliation... but hey... they're black, right? They don't have any feelings we have to be concerned about...

I'm also disgusted by the fact that you seem to think it'd be "fun" to crash planes into the WTC but wouldn't want a mod like that because you think it'd be unpleasant for other people... I happened to live within easy viewing distance of the towers. I had friends who lost family. My family lost its livelihood because of 9/11... That said, a scenario that tastefully covered the events of 9/11 and the aftermath would not be offensive to me. Being the terrorists and flying the planes into the buildings is not tasteful.

 

[LittleRedPoint]

It's good to be bad!

You can be good in the game if you want, it's a game! All nasty things should be in this game

 

[KingMississippi]

I agree with Dom Pedro. Anything can be taken too literally. People need to learn from history and not cover it up. Suppressing religion, free speech, etc. in the name of political correctness is not a good thing whether it is in real life or in a game. If you dont agree with the mod than dont play it or download it. IF you have a problem with what is in the mod than stop reading this thread the thread and go discuss how not to offend anything and everything in another thread. If you wanted some help about finding a new topic to take offense at go discuss the Civ4 religions in some thread because having a predominately islam nation not islamic could be offensive or Britain as Hindu or India farming cattle, etc. There are plenty of topics to get offended at in the game if you have a small mind.

 

[Wyz_sub10]

history is by and large a dirty and unpleasant thing as it involves human beings

Exactly.

As for illicit resources (and I'll include slaves here), I really like the idea so long as we see some real consequences (*cough*...religion...*cough*).

Drugs, etc. make a segment of the population happy, and a segment unhappy. This needs to be reflected.

Also, interciv relationships have to be affected.

I'd like to see some Civics around this - "Legalized Narcotics" or something like that (along with a Civics for same sex marrige, etc.)

Hmmm....is there a civics mod in progress?

Anyway, first thing's first - I agree about Tobacco, Hemp, and Opium being in.

 

[panzooka]

I also find it interesting, panzooka, how you support slaves being in the game (even going so far as to say they'd be a "nice addition") but not opium.... eventhough millions of Africans died aboard slave ships in some of the most horrific conditions any human being has ever been subjected to ever... only to arrive in the New World and for the first years be worked virtually to death... and even once slavemasters started treating them slightly more humanely, they still faced whippings, having their families split apart on a whim and several hundred years of degradation and humiliation... but hey... they're black, right? They don't have any feelings we have to be concerned about...

I'm also disgusted by the fact that you seem to think it'd be "fun" to crash planes into the WTC but wouldn't want a mod like that because you think it'd be unpleasant for other people... I happened to live within easy viewing distance of the towers. I had friends who lost family. My family lost its livelihood because of 9/11... That said, a scenario that tastefully covered the events of 9/11 and the aftermath would not be offensive to me. Being the terrorists and flying the planes into the buildings is not tasteful.

i was only trying to proove a point, i said slaves, and i mean its only better than opium.
and KingMississippi, if more people find this mod unpleasant, that means less people play this mod, and i am only suggesting this for the sake of the mod. read my post, i said avoid unecessary.

 

[Plankhead]

If anyone is offended by opium besides panzooka, please say so.

As for slaves, that wasn't quite what I had in mind for this. There's already a slavery civic, and even though there's no simulation of the slave trade, what I really had in mind was using these goods to harm rivals.

 

[sir_woland]

Slavery better than opium?

Whoa, that's something.

If anyone is offended by opium or just as well any other choice in some random mod, then don't play the bloody mod, or alter it yourself to better suit your tastes.

If all the ideas brainstormed on these forums should have to pass through a Public Acceptance & Inoffensiveness Filter before they could be realized, do you seriously think any single mod would ever end up finished around here?

 

[upstart]

i think both slavery and opium should be included in the game as a mod for realistic historical trade resources. however, i think that they absolutely should show the negatives of each. such as opium -health and slavery -happiness. and i think that each negative affect should be multiplied increasingly into the modern world so that slavery could cause civil wars later on and opium can cause the population to begin dying off(number of addicted people and diseases spread by drug users).

 

[Mythrl]

http://www.affymetrix.com/community/wayahead/thc_leukemia.affx

Marijuana's Active Ingredient Kills Leukemia Cells

I'm willing to make a large wager that it wouldn't be ingested by smoking it for that purpose. By and large most people who consume marijuana do so by smoking it, which means a hefty intake of carcinogens, which means increased chance of lung disease. Furthermore, there are other lung diseases besides cancer based ones that can be have equally devastating consequences.

 

[Kidneythief]

..however, i think that they absolutely should show the negatives of each. such as opium -health and slavery -happiness. and i think that each negative affect should be multiplied increasingly into the modern world so that slavery could cause civil wars later on and opium can cause the population to begin dying off(number of addicted people and diseases spread by drug users).

I hate to say it, but I really disagree with the saying that slavery should cause -happiness.. Think about it- anyone who harnessed slaves (anywhere in the world...) was happier because of it. I would consider a slave resource to be uncannily similar to, say, ivory. Just have it phased out. Ie. "Obsoletes Slaves.."

That's already the way a few resources work. Why make this a special case?

 

[MRM]

I think slaves should simply increase production and unhappines. There should be an option to bann slavery ( or maybe some civics should bann slavery automaticly ). And relationship of civs that stick to slavery to those who have banned it should be damaged. ( somthing between -2 and -4 maybe ? )

 

[maxpublic]

Slaves are already in the game. That's kinda the point of getting the slavery civic. You don't need a resource, just a simple tech and you're all set for centuries of brutal oppression, misery, and despair. I surely don't see the point of modeling it twice, e.g., once as a civic and again as a resource.

As for illicit drugs, I don't see the problem with putting them into the game. I do see a problem with giving them positive effects. Your best bet here would probably be making them act exactly like wine does in the game, i.e., provides extra gold for the most part (and an additional trade item), with one additional happy face if exploited. Trying to argue that they'd improve health or productivity just boggles the imagination. No one could seriously make this claim for booze, yet some think it actually applies to marijuana? Riiiight. No, I *don't* think I want what you're smoking; it's obviously wiped out more than a few brain cells.

Max

 

[upthorn]

I'm willing to make a large wager that it wouldn't be ingested by smoking it for that purpose. By and large most people who consume marijuana do so by smoking it, which means a hefty intake of carcinogens, which means increased chance of lung disease. Furthermore, there are other lung diseases besides cancer based ones that can be have equally devastating consequences.

Most of the carcinogens found in marijuana cigarettes are due to ingredients drug dealers cut it with. Pure marijuana smoke is a good deal healhier than pure tobacco smoke.

I say, have a health penalty under certain civics, and a health bonus under others.
Do the same thing for cocaine, and alcohol. (Alcohol is an antiseptic, etc...)

 

[upstart]

Slaves are already in the game. That's kinda the point of getting the slavery civic. You don't need a resource, just a simple tech and you're all set for centuries of brutal oppression, misery, and despair. I surely don't see the point of modeling it twice, e.g., once as a civic and again as a resource.

its because really in history they were more of a 'trade resource' than a civic. it seems to me at one point in time every civilization had a well-established slave trade going on where they would be sold for gold or products or anything really no matter the form of govt. its true whether you are talking about ancient rome or colonial america. historically i think as a resource it would much more represent the whole slave trade dynamic.

I think slaves should simply increase production and unhappines. There should be an option to bann slavery ( or maybe some civics should bann slavery automaticly ). And relationship of civs that stick to slavery to those who have banned it should be damaged. ( somthing between -2 and -4 maybe ? )

and i agree that at one time having slaves did bring happiness, but i think later into history it should really reflect the civil unrest that they brought to alot of the population. im not sure if it can be done but it id like to see it being phased out by later technologies like democracy and printing press and such by adding unhappiness the more progress your civ makes. so at first you would trade and have the resource for extra production but later on, it would cause so much unhappiness that you couldnt anymore...it would be more accurate then just having it switch off at one point in time. but i like the idea about relationship being hurt as well.

 

[4_HoTA]

I'd say

hemp: +1 culture, +1 happiness, -1 productivity

Yea i'd agree with pat ,plus my two cents...hemp: +1 culture, +2 happiness, -1 productivity,+1 corruption (no health negative as the postives balance the negatives)


Opium: +3 happy faces, -1 health, -1 productivity,+1 corruption (if you have smoked opium you will agree)

Alcohol: -1 science,-1 productivity,+2 happiness,+1 health (there are alot of health benifits with alcohol when taken in moderation)

Nice one zhao i like it...

Long long ago, In China I'm told
To England was traded some tea
And so sealed the fate
In pieces of eight
All England and all of the world
Yeah...poppies

When soon his majesty
Sent soldiers and thieves
To India Searching for gold
Instead from the ground
Some magic they found
Something far better I'm told
Yeah...poppies
Yeah...poppies

And now this story told
From days of our own
When gossamer doggies ran ran
They'd patiently wait
With pieces of eight
So everybody could smile one more time
Yeah...poppies
Yeah...poppies

If anyone is offended by opium besides panzooka, please say so.

As for slaves, that wasn't quite what I had in mind for this. There's already a slavery civic, and even though there's no simulation of the slave trade, what I really had in mind was using these goods to harm rivals.

Panzookas idiocy offends me...

 

[Mythrl]

Most of the carcinogens found in marijuana cigarettes are due to ingredients drug dealers cut it with. Pure marijuana smoke is a good deal healhier than pure tobacco smoke.

I say, have a health penalty under certain civics, and a health bonus under others.
Do the same thing for cocaine, and alcohol. (Alcohol is an antiseptic, etc...)

Lung disease isn't just caused by carcinogens. Carcinogens increase the likelihood of developing lung cancer. And the question wasn't comparison to tobacco. The fact is inhaling smoke of any kind is pretty bad for your lungs.

 

[panzooka]

Panzookas idiocy offends me...

thats personal attack, and i am expressing my point of view from another perspective, i found some people on this thread that are unfriendly when discussing.

as for slave resource, it could be disabled to all labor civic except slavery. so slavery civic could have some use. and slavery civic is argueable the least usefull civic now, because early in the game, your cities are all low population, and later in the game, its better to rush with gold

 

[Stuporstar]

Most of the carcinogens found in marijuana cigarettes are due to ingredients drug dealers cut it with. Pure marijuana smoke is a good deal healhier than pure tobacco smoke.

I say, have a health penalty under certain civics, and a health bonus under others.
Do the same thing for cocaine, and alcohol. (Alcohol is an antiseptic, etc...)

Actually pure tobacco smoke is a lot healthier than the cancer sticks that big tobacco are shoving down people's throats, so it's not really a fair comparison. Tailor-made smokes are cut with just as much evil ingredients as drug dealers cut more illicit drugs with in order to make them more addictive. I've been smoking pure tobacco in pipes for years, and it is VERY different, and far healthier. Smelling cigarrette smoke makes me physically ill, and yet I can sit in a pipe/cigar smoking lounge for hours. Even most non-smokers I know can even stand the smell of pipe smoke, and some even like it (as long as it's a nice aromatic or something and not old man brand foot odour pipe tobacco).

Needless to say, yes inhaling burnt plant products of any kind is bound to be fairly carcinogenic on its own.

 

[maxpublic]

Alcohol: -1 science,-1 productivity,+2 happiness,+1 health (there are alot of health benifits with alcohol when taken in moderation)

No, there are not. You may have missed it (especially if you're a drunk), but last year an actual unbiased study (read: not funded by the French wine industry) conclusively proved that all those supposed 'health benefits' were just a load of bogus crap. There aren't any health benefits other than a temporary decrease in blood pressure which has no lasting effect over time.

On the other hand, every drink permanently and irreversibly kills thousands of brain cells. With every drink you become a little bit more stupid. Now granted, it might be somewhat difficult to see the difference if you were stupid to begin with, but for the rest of us every single drink makes us just that much dumber. Over time those drinks add up and your measurable IQ declines *even for moderate drinkers*. That's a fact for everyone, everywhere, no exceptions. No one is immune.

Giving any drug, alcohol included, a positive health bonus is nothing more than the wishful thinking of drunks and drug addicts in denial. The only benefit is that those very same drunks and drug addicts will pay good money for their fix. And that's only a benefit if the drugs are legal, so they won't have to steal the money from someone else to pay exorbitant black market prices.

Max

 

[4_HoTA]

Nice try with the drunkard insinu max..i don't stoop to pick up turds..have a look on the net about the benifits and negatives with drinking alcohol and you may find that if you actually read the inforamation (that dose by the way insist on moderation) you may well change your mind about what you said or at least add some moderation too your way of thinking on the subject.

Last year Harvard researchers discovered a genetic link to the French paradox. The gene is the Sirtuin 1 gene, which produces DNA repair enzymes. The molecular switch was found to be resveratrol, a red wine molecule and mimic of calorie restriction. Limiting calories unequivocally produces super longevity in all species. The large number of centenarians in Okinawa are a human example of calorie restriction. However, the very idea that humans can achieve unusual longevity without calorie deprivation is of significant interest. Benjamim Franklin once inquired why winos outlived their doctors. The French have the greatest concentration of Centenarians per 100,000 population despite their high calorie diet. The French who live in wine-growing districts live 25-45% longer. The oldest woman and man in modern times, Jean Calment of France (122 years) and Antonio Todde of Sardinia (115 years), were both wine drinkers. So was the Queen Mother of England who passed at age 100 years and outlived one of her daughters by 30 years. So far, the only studies involving resveratrol have been performed in lab dishes or animals. But the epidemiological evidence linking wine consumption with health and longevity is compelling. Red wine pills are in the offing, but Harvard researchers couldn't duplicate their results with red wine dietary supplements. Apparently the red wine molecules must be preserved as they are in research-grade material or in sealed wine bottles. The prospect of an anti-aging pill is real, said a 2002 report in Scientific American magazine. We live in an unexpected era where superlongevity may be within reach.

Competing interests: Author: The Anti-Aging Pill, principal, Longevinex, manufacturer of red wine pill


http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/329/7478/1308-g#88535

Oh and sorry panzooka,i wrote that after becoming rather pissed at your rave on the opium subject,were a global society now,we get on with it,history can be a drag on progress at times.