I'm back for one game at least

tjs282 · Mar 19, 2020

And there you have it.

Spoiler TLDRlog :

The Koreans are on the run, and you have 2 fat stax of Swords + Cats to finish them off with.

You also have 3 Settlers either in place for founding (Settler Denver for the FP-site -- which should probably rather be DesMoines?), or 1 turn/tile away from their intended spots (Settlers Minneapolis and Galveston). There is a Korean Axe in the Rockies near the FP-site: troops are en route to defend that Settler/town (I had to take the Spear from Chicago: it's happy right now, but may riot after it grows to Pop4 this interturn).

Note that Galveston needs to go 4SW of NewOrleans, 2SE of Pyongyang. The Plains 1SE that I'd wanted to refound on, actually has no freshwater-access (i.e. gives no commerce, marked 'X')! I've left injured/fortified vSwords in several places where I think we should re-Settle north Korea (Seoul's been built on a Wheat: it needs to go, too!).

We will build 2 more Settlers this IBT (Washington and Erie), and then you can use 'WTBP?' to revolt immediately. If you draw 9 turns of Anarchy, feel free to play 20!

I've left the Gran-build going in Boston for now, but I (still) don't think we need it: the more fringe-y southern river-towns have or are building Grans, so can be turned over to Settler/Worker provision after the revolution. So I (still) think a Lib (+ Duct + Harbour) in Boston would be preferable.

We have just met the Zulus (in Britain!). Shaka knows Poly and Wheel, but nothing on the Alph branch *rubs hands together gleefully*. His current price for Wheel = Alph + 31g, but you/we can probably get that gold back immediately, by selling him Writing for Poly. I'd rather trade us into the Medieval where possible, than research everything ourselves...

M60A3TTS · Mar 19, 2020

6 turn anarchy so no issues here. Quick Question- we got Geo. Washington at Pusan. We really don't need the HE at this moment. What about using George on the FP?

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

One more thing. It is my turn 4 and Wang has two cities left. Next turn he should have one. He would then trade MM, Currency and wheel to us for philo and lit. We could then do the deal and then declare on him the following turn. Knowledge of our perfidy would almost certainly die with him as it's all but certain he hasn't met anyone yet. There's an argument to be made that that would be a cheesy move as the AI would never do that, but I throw it out there for what it's worth.

tjs282 · Mar 20, 2020

M60A3TTS said:
Quick Question- we got Geo. Washington at Pusan. We really don't need the HE at this moment. What about using George on the FP?

That would be nice, but we're playing under Conquests rules, where MGLs can't be used to rush (Small) Wonders. We could use General Washington for a free Palace-jump, e.g. to DesMoines, though that would increase corruption in our original core-towns (though would also make the Gran-build in Boston a more viable choice

).

Otherwise, a Sword-Army could still be useful. If you can use it to kill something right now, we'll unlock not only HE (even if we don't actually need to build it yet, it would still be nice to have at some point, for the increased MGL-spawn probability), but also MilAcad (if we can set up a Palace-prebuild in the FP-town, we could have the MilAcad the same turn we get MilTrad, and then we can immediately start building Armies for shipping over to Europe)

If you also restrict the Army to only 2 Swords (for now), then once we have a Caravel to carry it over there, it could be used as a stack-anchor for taking out the Zulus. Because if Shaka's been stuck on a small island, he probably has a shedload of cruddy units that he 'needs' to get rid of, so it would be better to land our units under an Army, to avoid losing everything on the first interturn.

M60A3TTS said:
It is my turn 4 and Wang has two cities left. Next turn he should have one. He would then trade MM, Currency and wheel to us for philo and lit. We could then do the deal and then declare on him the following turn. Knowledge of our perfidy would almost certainly die with him as it's all but certain he hasn't met anyone yet.

I generally avoid backstabbing, but that's because I usually play on Standard-Large maps, and my major wars usually happen in the mid- to late game, when everyone already knows each other, and doing so will thus ruin my trade-rep. But as you say, if Wang hasn't met anyone else yet, then we should be able to get away with it here.

Hell, even if there is an as-yet-uncontacted AI-Civ in South America (unlikely, because we would surely have seen at least one exploring Axe by now...?), then they're already on our hit-list, simply because they're sharing a land-mass with us. So even if our trade-rep is toasted with them too, it won't matter, because we can also stop them from meeting anyone else :trouble:

But maybe (if you still can?) try to get Wheel from Shaka first, so we can extort MM + Currency + HbR from Wang...? Assuming he has it, I'm sure he'd give it to us, he must be absolutely desperate by now...

(And also, I have frequently seen the AI make peace and then immediately re-declare...)

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

tjs282 said:
That would be nice, but we're playing under Conquests rules, where MGLs can't be used to rush (Small) Wonders.

I'll take that as a "yes"

tjs282 · Mar 20, 2020

Oh! Well, TIL....

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

I got Rhye's terrain map loaded on my own PC that finally came back from the shop. So now things look a little more pretty.

(1) 130BC Omaha founded. Can build a lot of planes down the road and be SAC HQ. Maybe at the very end have some fun with a couple strategic missile wings.

Somehow I botched the WTBP move but revolted anyways with two settlers completed. We draw 6 turn anarchy. I play with Philly and Norfolk tiles so we shouldn’t lose any pop before we come out. Norfolk will just lose some food from its granary. Our troops advance, Now adjacent to Pusan and Wonsan in sight.

(2) 110BC Our cats do a pathetic 1 for 7 at Pusan. Lose a sword but kill a pair of spears and get General Washington. Pusan captured. A pair of reg Korean archers that were adjacent to Pusan dispatched w/o loss. Galveston and Minneapolis founded, start library. IBT Istanbul built Glib. Clearly a wonder city for the Ottomans and since they have to have learned education a while ago we know we’re in a decent sized tech hole. But we shall persevere.

(3) 90BC Wonsan cats put the Pusan cats to shame going 4/4. Kill defenders clean and Wonsan falls. Washington is heading for Omaha.

(4) 70BC Some movement and Rapid City founded.

(5) 50BC. Missed Little Rock unhappiness coming and they riot. No big deal in anarchy. Paegon captured with 2 reg spears defending and razed. Take 3 workers. Move next to last Korean city, Ulsan. Washington completes FP in Omaha. Wheel from Shaka for Alpha and 38g. Meet England vicinity of Spain and Babylon galley. Their homeland to be discovered.

(6) 30BC Make peace with Wang. In the treaty I offer him Philo and his life for MM, HBR, currency which he accepts.

I then tell him I’ve just changed my mind on the living part and Ulsan is taken and torched with the remainder of his earthly possessions. Check with Liz and gpt still on the table so confirm the world will never know… Now back to our good friend Shaka who gives us Poly and 28g for math and writing. Meet the Aztecs vicinity of France. IBT switch to Republic and Liz is working on Sun’s.

(7) 10BC Construction now in 2 @ 50% -33gpt with 165 in the treasury. Lux tax @10. Oklahoma City founded. As hoped, we lost no pop during anarchy.

(8-10) 10-50AD Worker actions and 3 swords moving south in South America to find things. Construction>Feudalism. I assume we need to self research this as it is too costly otherwise. After we meet more people tech trades may open up. And done.

Three settlers built and more in queue. We need more native workers and the two pumps will help with that. Norfolk building galley and should stay with that until we have a half dozen or so. We should settle Cuba and Haiti/DR for the dyes and grab the others on the east coast of SA which will take half a dozen or so settlers. That will give us quite a few trade opportunities down the road. Speaking of road, we probably for now just need one main one down the center of SA and just rely on boats to move people along the coast. We need one settler for the Panama Canal Zone. That leaves the Western US and the arable Canadian lands to settle. First ring around the FP is almost complete.

I've marched all the cats north for disposal as you see fit.

The infrastructure builds can be modified as needed but we are finishing up a couple needed granaries that should complete as is.

I'll get some fresh dotmaps up later.

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

NORFOLK SOUTHERN SHIPPING LINES ANNOUNCES FAST GALLEY SERVICE COMING SOON

Norfolk, VA. AP (Associated Parchment) News Release

The president of Norfolk Southern Shipping Lines, the Hon. Thos. S. Jackson Esq., has announced that his consortium will soon be operating a fleet of fast galley ships designed to operate along southern trade routes opening soon with the end of the recent Korean conflict.

According to Mr. Jackson “We anticipate building in our home base of Norfolk, a series of high speed galleys designed to whisk travelers of all types to the exotic ports of call soon to be springing up along the Caribbean, the Central Americas as well as the east coast of South America. As many are now aware, the dye trade is expected to become a major part of America’s commercial success in the coming centuries. The upside of dyes is one truly without limits and those who get into these areas first are likely to see themselves growing embarrassingly rich.”

The current move of Americans to the new untamed lands in every direction clearly has Norfolk Southern positioning its strategy as superior to other alternatives currently available to the traveling public.

Continued Mr Jackson “No doubt many Americans have heard talk recently of western migration being the next big thing, but the rumors of the government soon to be offering 40 acres and a mule to those intrepid pioneers are as of yet, unsubstantiated. In addition, the roads to the west are teeming with individuals of questionable repute, many of whom may take advantage of the many innocents in the region. Norfolk Southern galleys will offer safe, comfortable berthing and our professional and dedicated crew of rowers will make our passenger journeys a memorable one.”

When pressed as to whether the galleys would be able to make rapid speed in these waters, Mr. Jackson indicated that Norfolk Southern was looking at offering Express Ramming Speed Service along some premier routes but no further details were yet available.

tjs282 · Mar 20, 2020

M60A3TTS said:
Istanbul built Glib. Clearly a wonder city for the Ottomans and since they have to have learned education a while ago we know we’re in a decent sized tech hole.

Did you mean Literature? GLib expires with Education! And their finishing GLib also doesn't necessarily mean we're in a hole, they may have cascaded to it after losing another Wonder-race.

Still, it will all be academic in the end, right...?

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

Yes, thanks for the correction. And yes we plan for it to be academic.

M60A3TTS · Mar 20, 2020

Proposed locations for the Greater Northwestern Research Territory which are all science farms. Only Billings needs a duct.

tjs282 · Mar 22, 2020

Spoiler TLDRlog :

I have spent much of my set trying to get our core towns' pop-numbers (back) up for more <everything>. We now have Grans and Libs in most of the core, and I have been spinning Settlers/Workers out of towns as needed to keep order at Pop6-7.

Washington has been regrown to Pop6 (from Pop3!): it's now 4T from Pop7 (at +1 FPT net), and 3T from finishing an Aqueduct. Please let that build run its course, and get its population as high as sustainable (Pop8 should be feasible at current LUX=20%): the capital should not be building Workers/Settlers except when needed to keep order! (I would build a Lib there next, but maybe you'd rather have more boats for sailing east to Europe?)

Boston has been popping out Workers in between building infra: it will finish a Lib this IBT, and can immediately build a 1T Worker at Pop6. If we chop+mine its last Deer-Forest, I think it should be able to get +10 FPT at Pop5, working all the Wheat- and Deer-tiles. I have told the governor to 'Emphasise production' in all cities, to get extra IBT-shields on growth (when available), so if Boston can also get 7-8 SPT at Pop5, it will assign the 6th citizen to one of the mined Hills (ideally the Iron-Hill, provided you don't allow Albany to grab it!) for the extra 3-4 shields, and then immediately complete the build, turning that 6th citizen into a Worker (rinse and repeat).

I have been building Settlers nearly continuously out of Erie and Little Rock, but you need to keep an eye on both to avoid riots at Pop7 (should be easier now that the Deer-Forests are getting roaded, though: more commerce = more LUX% happyfaces). Albany should also be able to build Settlers at Pop5-7, or Workers at Pop6-7. That said, towns closer to our fringe (e.g. Green Bay, Chicago) are now also nearly sufficiently developed to be useful sources of our Settlers/Workers (and the Settlers then won't have so far to walk to get to their intended site, either). Chicago can already build 2T-Workers (+5 FPT, 5 SPT) at Pop6-7: once more of its tiles have been mined, it should be able to switch to building 4T-Settlers (+5FPT, 7 SPT, plus IBT-shields) instead.

I've started Settling the western Forests per your map, and also Korea (per my head-map!). Seoul and Pyongyang have both now been removed/ resettled. Pusan and Wonsan are slow-building Settlers for central and S.America. The first towns have also been founded in the Caribbean islands: those Galleys are currently in transit to Dyetona to pick up the next crop of Settlers for S.America.

NB Havana may look misplaced, but (I'm pretty sure) I did have a reason for planting there. The Worker is being built with the intention of chopping, roading and mining the Forest (chop-shields into the Harbour, for the trade-link and seafood-powered growth), then Colonising the Dyes. (Alternatively, road through them and drop another Settler off to build Guantanamo towards the other end of the island, to close the culture-gap). I wouldn't rush to build Libs on either Cuba or Hispaniola, though: at least, not before the towns are at Pop6 and have a Harbour + Courthouse + (maybe) a Duct. (Cultural expansion of Havana then gets the Whales and Fish for faster growth to Pop12).

I assumed that we were going for the Invention --> MilTrad beeline, and aiming to trade for Mono --> Navi, for larger, sea-worthier ships (and trans-oceanic trade-links). So we have now learned Feudalism, and are 5T away from Engineering (both already known across the Atlantic, as is Monotheism). I didn't bother (pre)building SunTzu, though, because most of the Euro/African Civs are already engaged in a Wonder-race. Babylon and the Iroquois appear to be the most advanced: they are both building Leos (i.e. they know Invention).

I've disbanded nearly all our Cats (I kept the 2 Korean ones, since they cost us no maintenance: they're making their way north to Washington, for shipping later), nearly all our Axes (apart from 1 vAxe I accidentally upgraded to a Sword, by misclicking on the upgrade instead of the disband button), and all our Archers. Inland towns are now completely ungarrisoned: Spears + Swords have been spread out along our borders. Swords have (also) been fortified on suggested future city-spots in central and south America.

Since we are (I assume) now aiming to build mainly Workers and Settlers to colonise our landmass, most of our Barracks could also be sold to save maintenance (and then rebuilt later). We're not hurting for income any more, though, so if you'd rather keep them, that's fine. And if you're planning to begin a campaign against the Zulus in the near future (or the Aztecs, who reached and Settled on Greenland at some point during my set), then we'll need to keep them for building Maces + Pikes.

The Curragh exploring Europe was forced south by an Aztec boat at Gibraltar, so it's now exploring the African coast instead.

M60A3TTS · Mar 23, 2020

250AD T0 Looks good, although the workers spread out a bit too much for my taste.

260AD T1 Helena founded. Workers continue their work. I am going to consolidate some of them so we can work on some road projects. Admittedly will lose out on a few improvements as they will just be moving but still worth it IMHO. The faster roads are placed along the three primary directions of colonization; the faster they settle and don’t add against our unit count.

270AD T2 One of our swords spots a cluster of three gems in South America.

280AD T3 We are now at 35 cities with 7 settlers and 25 workers. 10 settlers and 2 workers queued. IBT Aztecs are building Sistines. Naming some batches of workers dedicated to road-building projects out west.

290AD T4. Naming all four of our galleys so it is a bit more clear what is happening with them.

300AD T5 Santa Fe founded. Cheyenne re-named Denver. (New) Cheyenne has another, less lucrative place to be located.

310AD T6 Casper founded. Irrigating tiles in the Omaha/Denver/Oklahoma City region.

320AD T7 San Juan and Guatemala founded.

330AD T8 Aztecs complete Suns and cascade results in Babs completing Leos in Babylon.

340BC T9 Tucumcari and San Jose founded. Meet Spain in SW Africa. Not very advanced, they have Monarchy and need Feudalism and other techs. May be a trade there to get them to research Mono for us? Mis-click the Panama Canal Zone settler and he goes to the wrong tile. Grrr.

350AD T10 Boise founded. PCZ settler moves to proper spot.

Galley updates:

Tropical Mist is waiting to load settler 2/2 next turn across from Dyetona.

Paradise Found dropped off the PCZ settler and is waiting for the canal to open so it can go through and start up the west coast and head for Asia. It has one unit aboard if we encounter huts along the way. The scout west of SLC should probably climb aboard when it passes.

Everglades Queen dropped off a settler pair for Maracaibo, east of the soon-to-be PCZ. Ready to make her return run next turn.

Caribbean Princess heading north along the coast now between Guatemala and Havana.

Norfolk will complete harbor next turn. Suggest we get another galley built to replace Paradise Found for the South American Clipper Service.

Our southern road through Central America now runs to San Jose, just 3 tiles from PCZ. And done. More to follow...

M60A3TTS · Mar 23, 2020

The promises of wealth in the form of several gold fields discovered west of the Rocky Mountains now fascinates the American public. To unlock the vast riches of the Sierra Nevadas and Washington, Oregon and California Territories, two competing entities are laboring mightily. In the "Great Race to the Pacific", transportation moguls E.H. Harriman of Pacific Union Transport and James J. Hill of the Big North Road Group are pitted against one another. Pacific Union has selected the easier route that bypasses the Rockies to the south through Salt Lake City, but it is also the longer. Big North is now carving its way through the shortest path of the Rockies. Both are reliant on Incan laborers to supplement their respective work forces.

Not to be forgotten is Norfolk Southern Shipping. President Lincoln recently met with Mr. Thos. Jackson who, like Harriman and Hill, is demanding increased numbers of Republican troops to protect against potential bandits and regional threats. The president expressed his frustration at Jackson's unwillingness to accept the answer that Republican troops are hard pressed to be everywhere that one special interest or another says they are desperately needed. Lincoln was reported to have said :"Jackson is so strong-headed that reasoning with him is next to impossible. At times it's like talking to a stone wall."

M60A3TTS · Mar 23, 2020

In terms of dotmaps and more dotmaps, here is what I currently have,

Three to complete the Greater Montana Research Territory.

Seven for the Pacific Northwest

Five for the California-Nevada-Wyoming Territories (San Fran and Reno already included above). Lake Havascu City I later thought should go 1SE of the original spot I have now annotated on the map. Note that here is one of those cases I am comfortable settling CxC where food is abundant and the terrain just causes it to work out that way. No hurry on Cheyenne, it can go in last if we want.

Four to get a good hold of the gems that will, like our dyes, be in high demand from our future trading partners.

Others will be needed to wallpaper the eastern coast of South America. For the shorter term there are still a couple places to grab, one of which has access to dyes and gems. For Canada and Alaska, depending on how aggressive we want to be, I would see a very loose settling pattern. Go for max practical distance, chop a temple and wait for cultural expansion, then sell the temple off. South America will be very labor intensive and we'll probably need RP before we can seriously develop hordes of science farms.

M60A3TTS · Mar 23, 2020

Here are a few notes from the Foreign Desk.

Included are techs up and down, cities, gold, lux and resources. Also embassy build costs. We probably want an ear to the ground in Europe sooner rather than later.

I'm thinking we trade Izzy Feudalism for Monarchy just so she'll research mono for us. I assume that since she is religious and needs chiv for her conqs, that would make sense for her. We can trade for just about any tech, but if Liz considers us her BFF we can let her work much of the upper part of the tech tree for us as we work and trade up the bottom.

Hiawatha is clearly the strongest. An Alpha male at 32 cities and will likely be swallowing others when the time comes. The Zulu are at the other end of the spectrum, just in the wrong place being stuck on an island and pretty much waiting to be crushed.
Monty just doesn't look strong enough to take on Hiawatha and that may be the first war in the region if it didn't already take place.
England and Babylon middle of the pack.
Liz and as mentioned Shaka fodder-in-waiting.

tjs282 · Mar 24, 2020

M60A3TTS said:
250AD T0 Looks good, although the workers spread out a bit too much for my taste.

That's funny, 'cos when I opened your last save, I found the Workers too stacked for my taste

Spreading Workers out is generally a more efficient way (i.e. wastes far fewer Worker-turns in total) to work on unimproved tiles, though: build roads solo (1 turn 'wasted' per Worker per unimproved tile), then once the tiles are roaded, stack the nearest available Workers to immediately irrigate/mine that tile in 1-2T (with no Worker-turns wasted).

With the towns where our Workers are/were not in any immediate need of fully improved tiles (because they already had more than enough for their current and next pop-levels), and our core building mainly Libs + Grans during my set rather than Settlers, it made more sense (to me) to prepare the ground for future needs. So I let Slaves do the roading on flat tiles (which happens within one 'standard' growth cycle of 10T at +2FPT, before a Gran goes up), to save the Workers (or a Slave-stack) to do the 'heavy' jobs fast, once those roads were in place.

For building roads out west, 1 Worker per road should be plenty: being Industrious, they'll each road 1 tile per 3T, and if we send them ahead of the Settler(s), then the road will already be in place when the (next) Settler needs it (and the Worker will be available at the Settler's destination — or can quickly return there — for chopping, etc.)

M60A3TTS said:
For Canada and Alaska, depending on how aggressive we want to be, I would see a very loose settling pattern. Go for max practical distance, chop a temple and wait for cultural expansion, then sell the temple off.

If we're going to chop something out of a 1-shield-town, I'd argue otherwise.

A 1-shield town growing at +2FPT can reach Pop3, and generate 20 shields, in 20 turns — so it would be better if those chop-shields went into another Settler, rather than a building that's just going to get junked 5T after it completes.

So I'd rather argue in favour of continuing to Settle the to-be-farmed areas of Central and South America at CxxxC. This will close the intervening Cultural gap without needing a Temple to do it, while also still leaving a free tile for ICS-ing later (if we want to do that).

Also, if we're going to drop most of our South American colonists off by ship anyway, we should be able to use CxxxC to close most of the (more accessible) eastern coast before the first European/African colonists arrive.

(If there are any Sea-routes, e.g. via west Africa, with only 1-2 Ocean tiles that can be skipped over, we may see the first foreign colonists soon after the first AI-Civ learns Astro/ builds Galleons)

The western coast is nearly all flat, so a Worker (or Slave-triplet) could road it relatively quickly, allowing Settlers from the north to walk (at least some of the way) to their intended sites, in (almost) as little time they would need to sail it (in a Galley). And once we occupy the entire coastline, we can infill/backfill the inland-sites pretty much at our leisure.[

M60A3TTS said:

If we're Settling the Southwest at CxxC, I'd keep Lake Havescu where it is (on the Floodplain = no Duct), move Yuma 1NE (onto the Floodplain = no Duct), and move San Diego (or plant Tijuana?) on the coastal Plains SSE of the current position.

If these are going to be Science-farms, then they might as well go to Pop12 (=6-9 Geeks per city, with full irrigation and later rails)

M60A3TTS said:
We can trade for just about any tech, but if Liz considers us her BFF we can let her work much of the upper part of the tech tree for us as we work and trade up the bottom.

This is a good plan, but it doesn't have to be Liz specifically: everyone who already has Theo and Invention will most likely do Edu and/or Gunpowder, and then switch exclusively to the upper/middle techs, which all have associated buildings/units (and then lead to Wonder-techs): conversely, the next tech after Gunpowder is Chemistry (empty), so the AI tends to ignore it for a long time.

Do we want (to encourage our research-partners to get us) Navigation ASAP? If there aren't any continuous Sea-routes between the Americas and Europe/Africa on this map(?), then we can't import/export resources until that tech is known (or Magnets, but that usually comes much later). If so, do we also want to prebuild for Magellans, to prevent the AI from getting that extra naval movement (which might give them access to our Continent that much sooner). Faster ships would also be useful to have, once we start our invasion(s).

Are there any (other) Wonders we might want for ourselves?

M60A3TTS said:
I assume that since she is religious and needs chiv for her conqs, that would make sense for her.

No, Spain gets Conqs instead of Explorers (i.e. with Astronomy, not Chivalry). Spain is Religious though, which might incline Izzy to Monotheism (for cheap Cathedrals). I wouldn't be inclined to buy Monarchy just to pass it on to her, though.

M60A3TTS · Mar 24, 2020

tjs282 said:
That's funny, 'cos when I opened your last save, I found the Workers too stacked for my taste

Spreading Workers out is generally a more efficient way (i.e. wastes far fewer Worker-turns in total) to work on unimproved tiles, though: build roads solo (1 turn 'wasted' per Worker per unimproved tile), then once the tiles are roaded, stack the nearest available Workers to immediately irrigate/mine that tile in 1-2T (with no Worker-turns wasted).

With the towns where our Workers are/were not in any immediate need of fully improved tiles (because they already had more than enough for their current and next pop-levels), and our core building mainly Libs + Grans during my set rather than Settlers, it made more sense (to me) to prepare the ground for future needs. So I let Slaves do the roading on flat tiles (which happens within one 'standard' growth cycle of 10T at +2FPT, before a Gran goes up), to save the Workers (or a Slave-stack) to do the 'heavy' jobs fast, once those roads were in place.

For building roads out west, 1 Worker per road should be plenty: being Industrious, they'll each road 1 tile per 3T, and if we send them ahead of the Settler(s), then the road will already be in place when the (next) Settler needs it (and the Worker will be available at the Settler's destination — or can quickly return there — for chopping, etc.)
If we're going to chop something out of a 1-shield-town, I'd argue otherwise.

I'm sure that between us we can find a happy medium.

Getting the roads built ahead of the settler wave is what we clearly agree on.

tjs282 said:
A 1-shield town growing at +2FPT can reach Pop3, and generate 20 shields, in 20 turns — so it would be better if those chop-shields went into another Settler, rather than a building that's just going to get junked 5T after it completes.

So I'd rather argue in favour of continuing to Settle the to-be-farmed areas of Central and South America at CxxxC. This will close the intervening Cultural gap without needing a Temple to do it, while also still leaving a free tile for ICS-ing later (if we want to do that).

Also, if we're going to drop most of our South American colonists off by ship anyway, we should be able to use CxxxC to close most of the (more accessible) eastern coast before the first European/African colonists arrive.

(If there are any Sea-routes, e.g. via west Africa, with only 1-2 Ocean tiles that can be skipped over, we may see the first foreign colonists soon after the first AI-Civ learns Astro/ builds Galleons)

I'm trying to think of the fastest way to expand in the less productive areas knowing it's going to be very difficult to cover everything we need to before the AI tries to settle here. This mainly refers to NE Canada and Alaska where all the tundra towns offer ample wood cutting for the quick temple. Your point that a corrupt town can still kick out a settler every 20 is a valid one. Wealth, workers and settlers are pretty much the standard tundra town fare except where there is a coast with fish naturally. South America is different and should be settled as you say.

tjs282 said:
The western coast is nearly all flat, so a Worker (or Slave-triplet) could road it relatively quickly, allowing Settlers from the north to walk (at least some of the way) to their intended sites, in (almost) as little time they would need to sail it (in a Galley). And once we occupy the entire coastline, we can infill/backfill the inland-sites pretty much at our leisure.

Yes, up until you start getting into hilly Canada that is not a priority at the moment.

tjs282 said:
If we're Settling the Southwest at CxxC, I'd keep Lake Havescu where it is (on the Floodplain = no Duct), move Yuma 1NE (onto the Floodplain = no Duct), and move San Diego (or plant Tijuana?) on the coastal Plains SSE of the current position.

No strong preference either way. Do what you like there.

tjs282 said:
If these are going to be Science-farms, then they might as well go to Pop12 (=6-9 Geeks per city, with full irrigation and later rails)

West coast I suspect will be totally corrupt for all but Communism, so yes, science farms.

tjs282 said:
This is a good plan, but it doesn't have to be Liz specifically: everyone who already has Theo and Invention will most likely do Edu and/or Gunpowder, and then switch exclusively to the upper/middle techs, which all have associated buildings/units (and then lead to Wonder-techs): conversely, the next tech after Gunpowder is Chemistry (empty), so the AI tends to ignore it for a long time.

Do we want (to encourage our research-partners to get us) Navigation ASAP? If there aren't any continuous Sea-routes between the Americas and Europe/Africa on this map(?), then we can't import/export resources until that tech is known (or Magnets, but that usually comes much later). If so, do we also want to prebuild for Magellans, to prevent the AI from getting that extra naval movement (which might give them access to our Continent that much sooner). Faster ships would also be useful to have, once we start our invasion(s).

I trust you will find us some appropriate trades. For example, here is the current market for invention:

All w/35gpt

Hiawatha 75
Hammy, Liz 101
Monty 127

You have CA II running, so maybe you can better gauge these. Like others, I can't get CAII to work properly on my machine. I'm fine pre-building for Magellan's if we think we can get it. The extra 1MP is a nice boost for America.

tjs282 said:
Are there any (other) Wonders we might want for ourselves?

ToE is clearly the vital one. It really comes down to what we can get in on while we are currently lagging in tech. We will no doubt close the gap there but for now, I think our pre-build options are rather limited. Saying that, we should probably look to get a palace-prebuild city working up towards pop 12 very soon, with happy buildings if that's what it takes.

tjs282 said:
No, Spain gets Conqs instead of Explorers (i.e. with Astronomy, not Chivalry). Spain is Religious though, which might incline Izzy to Monotheism (for cheap Cathedrals). I wouldn't be inclined to buy Monarchy just to pass it on to her, though.

Yes, there's my Civ4 showing through again :sad:

tjs282 · Mar 24, 2020

M60A3TTS said:
I'm sure that between us we can find a happy medium. Getting the roads built ahead of the settler wave is what we clearly agree on.

M60A3TTS said:
I'm trying to think of the fastest way to expand in the less productive areas knowing it's going to be very difficult to cover everything we need to before the AI tries to settle here.

TBH, even if the AI-Civs do Settle a crap-ton of Craptowns^TM up in the Tundra, I don't think that will pose a major problem for us.

Because those towns aren't going to be able to grow or build anything fast, so once we have Cavs, taking them down should be easy as taking the proverbial candy from the proverbial baby. We might even get to keep 1 or 2 of them...

M60A3TTS said:
ToE is clearly the vital one. It really comes down to what we can get in on while we are currently lagging in tech. We will no doubt close the gap there but for now, I think our pre-build options are rather limited.

The main reason we're behind at this point is that — unlike the Afro-Eurasian Civs — we (all 3 of us 'American' civs) had so few neighbours who could help make the (Ancient) techs cheaper, and so we had to research/buy them at a higher relative price.

(Also, very late switch to Republic...)

But soon we'll have met everyone there is to know, and with our core now in good shape, we should be able to catch up (with self-research, plus some canny trading: CAII is indeed very useful here) and then pass them shortly, at least on the obligatory techs.

Certainly we should be caught up before we hit the Industrial, and the killing will already have begun by then, so (even if we miss Magellans), ToE+Hoovers should be a shoo-in.

And once we know exactly how far along the AI-Civs are, we could probably put Boston or Norfolk (or maybe even Bath) on a Palace-prebuild for Magellans, and switch it immediately when Navi comes in.

(Boston/Norfolk would both need Ducts, Harbours + Markets first, though!)

M60A3TTS said:
Saying that, we should probably look to get a palace-prebuild city working up towards pop 12 very soon, with happy buildings if that's what it takes.

With LUX%=20, 2-and-soon-to-be-3 Luxes of our own, plus maybe 1-2 more Luxes imported from someone we're not (currently) beating up on, a Market (= 6 Happyfaces at 4 Luxes, 9 Happyfaces at 5 Luxes) might be the only happy-building we need to sustain Pop12.

With Cavs — and later Cav-Armies — War-Weariness shouldn't ever become an issue for us. We should probably start thinking about trying to make it a problem for Hiawatha, though.

Oh and BTW, I'm curious: you seem to be on CFC at all hours of the day — so when do you (find the time to) sleep...?

M60A3TTS · Mar 24, 2020

Regarding galleys, we should add about three to our fleet now. I'm quite sure we've got a couple civs to meet once we can get into the Mediterranean so we should send one that way ASAP. A couple more are needed so we can establish a shuttle service in South America. The farther we get from Dyetona, the longer the empty return trips, which any major hauler abhors. The map below indicates 1-way travel time from the current embarkation point 2E of Dyetona. If we add in a couple galleys to act as shuttles along the coast, it will speed up our return trip time from southern destinations and make the settling process more efficient.

I'm back for one game at least

Stone \ Cold / Fish

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