I'm back for one game at least
- Thread starter M60A3TTS
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M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Forgot to mention there is a 4th iron source at the southern end of the Rocky Mountains in North America. We now control the other three, So the Incas will be relatively easy to roll when we are ready.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Fair enough. Your game, your rules
I just use WordPad (.rtf editor), which was installed by default on my Win8.1 box.
Sounds good to me. I've got the save.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
On the dotmap, can we plan on settling at least 3 tiles apart? I don't like 2 tiles unless really needed. We will have plenty of room. That is why Norfolk is where it is.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Sure, no problem.
I really only dotmapped CxxC to allow easy troop-movement between towns, because it seemed like you were intent on a warring game (why else might we need a big navy? Not for a space-race!
), and I didn't know how many more Civs we were likely to encounter in the Americas.(In my experience, CxxC on or close to the N/E/S/W axes, distance 4 or so, usually allows a full 12-14 workable tiles per city, prior to Sanitation — even if some of those 12 are water-tiles).
That aside, you know this map much better than I do, so if you say settling looser is OK/preferable, I'm happy to go along with that. Like I say, that dotmap was only a suggestion, and Norfolk's placement has already amended it anyway
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I really only dotmapped CxxC to allow easy troop-movement between towns, because it seemed like you were intent on a warring game (why else might we need a big navy? Not for a space-race!
You may be onto something.
Do you have a VC preference? I'm actually flexible about it. I'm used to AW, not married to it and that option technically speaking is off the table.
Since this is "only" a 16 civ map, and with the American grouping of America, Aztec, Inca, Maya and Iroquois we know that there could only be two more potential AIs in South/Central America. I've not seen more than 2 other AI spawn in the Americas probably as a result of balancing all the global civ spawn locations. So while it may not be impossible for there to be another American civ in South/Central America, it is unlikely.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
One important note, Philly is due to riot next turn so please adjust accordingly.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
I tend to go for Space by default (up to Emperor), but if we've got (nearly) all the Iron here, that seems like it would be too 'easy' a win: just use Swords/Maces to wipe everyone else off the Americas within the next 100 turns, then race through the rest of the tech-tree unimpeded by War Weariness, turn Central and South America into science-farms, and trade with (or extort) the remaining Eurasian Civs for any of the Ship-resources (Alu, Uranium and Rubber) that we're still missing.
But the last SG I played was a DG Space-Race, and before that there was an Emp-Culture SG (found that quite tedious), both on Large maps, so it would be nice to do something different this time. So I'd be fine with domination (or even conquest!), since we'd have to do amphibious invasions for that (Hoo-ah!).
If there are no Horses anywhere in the Americas anyway, then we'll be restricted to M=1 foot-units until either we can buy some Horses from Eurasia or until Tanks are on the menu. For resource-trade, I think(?) we'd need to build GLight now, or learn Astronomy in the Medieval, to use the Sea-lanes that Marla included. So how about we just assume we won't have M=2 units before the late Industrial, and then (research to SciMethod for ToE+Hoovers, RepParts for Infantry, then to MotorTransport, then Flight) aim for simultaneous seaborne invasions of Britain and/or Japan?
IIRC, Airfields were added in PtW, right? Though they can only airlift 1 outgoing unit per turn, they can receive an unlimited number of incoming units, so once our Tanks (and Marines?) have taken each island, we could use Slaves to plant Airfields outside all of our core cities (that don't already have an Airport for building veteran Bombers — and later F-15s?), plus one Airfield on each island. Then, every time a new unit gets built, it can move to the adjacent Airfield (city-based Rally Points actually do work well for this), we can airlift it to one or other of the islands, and then use the boats that we've already sailed over to that side of the Oceans, to shuttle our land-forces across to the mainland: basically, aim to squeeze out the Eurasian Civs, starting from each end of that continent, then sweeping down through Africa.
Will do.
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M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I doubt with this huge map that we could wait until the late industrial age to get rolling with tanks and have time to pull off a dom/conq victory. We're almost certainly going to need horses for cav armies with their 4 movement once we snag MT. The Koreans will be in the same boat (looking for horses) if they are still around. I plan to eventually build the Military Academy in Chicago that will be a solid production center.
We will need to think about building Magellan's too since we would need that to trip our GA with Hoovers. GLight would be obsolete by then anyways.
As our towns grow, we will need to think about happiness, We see two luxes, furs and dyes and that is all that there is for the forseeable future,
I think airfields work as you describe. But we will have not just the Eurasian land mass and Africa, but scattered tundra towns and island cities throughout the SoPAC island chains and of course Australia.
We will need to think about building Magellan's too since we would need that to trip our GA with Hoovers. GLight would be obsolete by then anyways.
As our towns grow, we will need to think about happiness, We see two luxes, furs and dyes and that is all that there is for the forseeable future,
I think airfields work as you describe. But we will have not just the Eurasian land mass and Africa, but scattered tundra towns and island cities throughout the SoPAC island chains and of course Australia.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
That depends how quickly we get to the Industrial Age, no?
According to CivAssist, the tech-costs appear to be still similar to a Huge Firaxis map (160*160), rather than scaled up further for this 'Extra-Huge' map. So if we go to Republic (for the commerce-bonus), beeline the required techs (plus Lit for Libs, and MilTrad for Cavs) and ignore the rest, it should (still) be feasible to hit the Industrial in maybe 1400 or 1500 AD.
We should already have killed the Inca and possibly also the Koreans before we even get to Republic, so War-Weariness (vs. Korea's remnants and any Civs south of them) should be manageable using the LUX%-slider, plus the Furs and Dyes (are there any more Lux-types in S.America?)
Turnlog:
Spoiler 1750 BC-1500BC :
You can still change that if you want: either raising SCI% to get Writing faster (we could get it in 15T at SCI%=70%, and +2GPT; or in 12T at SCI%=90% and -3GPT), or switching our tech-target to... something else? Bear in mind, though, that we can get Wheel from Pacha for IW, so I'd do that just before we DoW him again. Also, until we hook our first Lux, we will need 2 mil-pol units and LUX%=10% to keep order in the Pop4 towns, and we'll probably need to Geek any 5th citizen while a Settler completes (1 Settler is already queued in Chicago, to start once the Sword is done).
As far as the imminent hostilities go, we/you now have 2 vSwords in Boston, 1 more on the way there from Washington and 1 still in Chicago (keeping order until he's relieved!), with 3 more vSwords (plus a Cat in Boston) due to complete over the next 4T. Norfolk has also nearly finished its Rax, and Warriors are already queued there. It's still only getting 2SPT, though, because I didn't send the Worker over there yet (to road and mine), but he is still in the vicinity: he'll be finished roading Philly's Hill this IBT, and can get to Norfolk's NE Wheat in 2T.
If you stay on the min-run, we'll have plenty of cash coming in, and could probably consider upgrading our rWarriors as well, for (continued) use as mil-pol, but also as active home-defence. Since Pacha can only build Warriors, Chasquis and Archers for attacking (all D=1), if we Cat-ping his incoming, rSwords should get promoted to vet pretty quickly. You suggested building Spears as well, but if we do that, I'd (also) keep them at home as mil-pol, since Swords can defend themselves.
I've also revised my dotmap a little, based on your preference for looser Settlement. I think Chicago's imminent Settler should go SW to the blue circle (Forest) where the rWarrior is standing, to grab the Cow and Deer for itself, and another Wheat to pass between it, Chicago, and Philly. If (later on) we Settle where the other blue circles are, we can also get a fair bit of 'Culture-free' border-expansion (spray-painted tiles), and more food-bonuses (yellow circles):
Save is below
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
That depends how quickly we get to the Industrial Age, no?
You got that right!
I like the revised dot map now. Although I'd still like to try and get 4 decent ports on the east coast, maybe we can squeeze two into New England once we see the land we have to work with. That may mean revising "New Boston" N or NW.
The min run on writing makes sense although when we get there lets weigh lit vs philo for Glib against Republic. I think there can be a case made for both of them.
I'm not too concerned about trading with the Inca. In due time they will be happy to tell us all they know.
Got it.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
IBT- Incas have another settler heading into the northern tundra. When we attack seems their defenses will be negligible. May try to kick this war off with what we have in 9-10 turns. Oh, and yes, one more lux in SA but that will be quite some time getting to.
T61 1475BC Worker heads from Philly to mine wheat at Norfolk next turn. Boston cat-cat in 5. Our scout in what I guess is British Columbia is going to be stuck moving very slowly and not finding much. Still, an Incan scout is shadowing ours, so ok.
Wang and Pacha still know wheel. Wang w/122g and Pacha penniless.
T62 1450BC No change with our friends.
T63 1425BC Washington gets a scientist. Worker starts mining Norfolk wheat. Boston worker chopping for cat. 276g and 24 gpt. I kick science to 90% writing now in 10 at only -3 gpt. I'm dropping my expectation for Norfolk warriors down a bit.
T64 1400BC Korea moving in on us. Found Namp'o 8 tiles SW of Chicago. Philly sword-sword. Norfolk rax-warrior. IBT Ottomans build the Oracle in Istanbul.
T65 1375BC Now 7 swords and 1 cat. Wang up to 147g and Pacha still zilch. No tech change, probably going HBR.
Chicago gets a sci, 3 in ttl in empire. 268g, -5gpt writing in 7. Save game and will play last 5 later tonight.
T61 1475BC Worker heads from Philly to mine wheat at Norfolk next turn. Boston cat-cat in 5. Our scout in what I guess is British Columbia is going to be stuck moving very slowly and not finding much. Still, an Incan scout is shadowing ours, so ok.
Wang and Pacha still know wheel. Wang w/122g and Pacha penniless.T62 1450BC No change with our friends.
T63 1425BC Washington gets a scientist. Worker starts mining Norfolk wheat. Boston worker chopping for cat. 276g and 24 gpt. I kick science to 90% writing now in 10 at only -3 gpt. I'm dropping my expectation for Norfolk warriors down a bit.
T64 1400BC Korea moving in on us. Found Namp'o 8 tiles SW of Chicago. Philly sword-sword. Norfolk rax-warrior. IBT Ottomans build the Oracle in Istanbul.
T65 1375BC Now 7 swords and 1 cat. Wang up to 147g and Pacha still zilch. No tech change, probably going HBR.
Chicago gets a sci, 3 in ttl in empire. 268g, -5gpt writing in 7. Save game and will play last 5 later tonight.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
T65 1375BC continued Mongols build SoZ in Karakorum.
T66 1350BC Washington sword-cat. Pacha now has 147 gold and Wang none. I will assume Incas finished HBR and sold it to Korea because they still only show up wheel and Incas remain down IW. Boston cat-cat. Boston worker finished forest chop now mining deer tile.
T67 1325BC nada
T68 1300BC Road a game tile north of Chicago.
T69 1275BC Incas learned IW. So they have wheel and presumably HBR while we have math. Their gold is gone. Wang now has the same 147 gold the Incas had so maybe that was the IW trade. Wang has math so we are up 0 techs and he has his wheel/HBR. Washington gets the scientist re-designated clown as a sword moves from garrison there to Boston for the festivities on the horizon.
T70 1250BC Boston pop 3, settler in 5. We will use him to replace Boston/Tiwanaku. Per the plan we will raze Tiwanaku and use the settler from Boston to settle elsewhere. That would be any of the three river tiles north of the Boston River. We have 8 swords and 4 cats in Boston. I think we can kick off the war with that, but I will leave that up to tjs. They have all their MP available to go now. As soon as we give Pacha the bad news we can replace our losses as they occur and act on the dotmap plan at any time starting now. Once we replace Boston we can get the furs on line. Cuzco is to the west of Boston and presumably there are two Incan towns, one north and one east of Tiwanaku.
And the save
T66 1350BC Washington sword-cat. Pacha now has 147 gold and Wang none. I will assume Incas finished HBR and sold it to Korea because they still only show up wheel and Incas remain down IW. Boston cat-cat. Boston worker finished forest chop now mining deer tile.
T67 1325BC nada
T68 1300BC Road a game tile north of Chicago.
T69 1275BC Incas learned IW. So they have wheel and presumably HBR while we have math. Their gold is gone. Wang now has the same 147 gold the Incas had so maybe that was the IW trade. Wang has math so we are up 0 techs and he has his wheel/HBR. Washington gets the scientist re-designated clown as a sword moves from garrison there to Boston for the festivities on the horizon.
T70 1250BC Boston pop 3, settler in 5. We will use him to replace Boston/Tiwanaku. Per the plan we will raze Tiwanaku and use the settler from Boston to settle elsewhere. That would be any of the three river tiles north of the Boston River. We have 8 swords and 4 cats in Boston. I think we can kick off the war with that, but I will leave that up to tjs. They have all their MP available to go now. As soon as we give Pacha the bad news we can replace our losses as they occur and act on the dotmap plan at any time starting now. Once we replace Boston we can get the furs on line. Cuzco is to the west of Boston and presumably there are two Incan towns, one north and one east of Tiwanaku.
And the save
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
I did end up cranking up science so in a couple turns we will need to decide whether to go for the Republic slingshot or Glib. I don't know how much self research we can get done in Republic if we are constantly warring with our two potential trading partners. At the same time, the palace prebuild for Glib is ten swords we don't build out of one city (I am presuming Philly) at a time we could use a lot of them. If we are going to do the Glib, we would be able to do a 50 turn run on Lit and if we pack in some workers at the end get the Glib built in about 55 turns. But we'll need to start after this next sword completes and then we're having to pull setters from one of three cities, Washington, Chicago or Norfolk. So things could be tight in the beginning, but then again unless Wang jumps into our fracas with Pacha, our losses should not require a lot of unit builds. That is where I see things with the Glib. I'll let tjs make the case for the Republic slingshot if he prefers that route.
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Lurker:
"In due time they will be happy to tell us all they know" that cracked me up.
"In due time they will be happy to tell us all they know" that cracked me up.
tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
I think I'd just want to move Boston 1tile NE, put it where you originally wanted it.
But since we can't resettle anyway, until both Boston and Tiwa are gone, and the Incans are no longer a threat to that location, I'd also prefer to build 1 or 2 Workers out of it first, before Settler-abandoning it at Pop1: we might as well get an extra pop-point out of it (2 Workers + 1 Settler = 4 pop).
We won't be 'constantly' warring with the Incans under Republic: we're about to go to war, and we should have Pacha's head onna stick long before we acquire that tech. Even if we haven't done for the Koreans as well by that point, they will likely also be on the ropes. We can then station most of our remaining forces in Central America to block northward expansion by any S.American civs, while we fully populate (the good bits of) North America.
With more cities up (prioritising River and Lake-sites), we'll earn more commerce for faster research, which we can then use to also get Lit and build Libs. That said, I think we need the Republic commerce-bonus before Lit, though I suspect we've probably missed our chance for the full Republic-slingshot (because we'd also need Code_Of_Laws before Philo). We might still be able to get the free-tech for Philo, but with 16 Civs on the map, some of whom will know a lot more trade/research partners than we do, Philo might already be known. But we won't know that for sure unless someone (we know) starts building the Mausoleum -- or we get notification that it's been completed.
Not sure I follow this. Unless it's been modded here(?), GLib is 400 shields (= 13 Swords, or 10 Maces), not 300 shields. Or did you mean that our Palace is only worth 300 shields right now?
Either way, though, I think GLib is a waste of time/shields for us at this point: if we'd really wanted it, we should have beelined Lit a long time ago, and (pre)built it already while Korea and the Incans swapped techs with each other (and hence also gave those techs to us). As it is, we already know more than half the Ancient techs already, and we can probably research, trade, or pointy-stick most of the rest of them in less than 55 turns (apart from Republic). And finally (unless it's been modded) GLib also expires with Education in the Medieval Age, so we wouldn't get very many free techs from it before it became deadweight.
If we want to learn stuff faster, we need more commerce (= more towns and citizens), a better government (I prefer Republic, even for warring), and (possibly) most importantly, we need to meet some more Civs to make (known) techs cheaper, and to replace the Incans and Koreans as trade-partners).
So after we get Writing, I'm now thinking Mapmaking should be our next target, researched as quickly as possible without going broke. Once we have it, build 4-5 (suicide) Galleys out of e.g. Norfolk (Incans should be dying/dead by then, and we won't need it for Warriors anymore, so we can hook it up for less corruption/more commerce), to send up past Greenland and over to Europe/MiddleEast/Africa, and down through the Caribbean to South America/East Asia.
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M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Ok, you clearly thought this through, so we'll head for Republic and pass on the GLib. Also go ahead and put Boston 1NE and build the workers if Tiwa is above pop 2. And yes, I meant the 300 shield palace is 10 swords with the GLib another 4 (300+120).
We don't need suicide galleys to get to contact Europe. Suicide curraghs will do, so we really don't need MM for galleys.
We don't need suicide galleys to get to contact Europe. Suicide curraghs will do, so we really don't need MM for galleys.
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tjs282
Stone \ Cold / Fish
Spoiler EDITED to add Turnlog :
I also caught a brief glimpse of an Incan Spear+Settler, somewhere west of Chicago, and south of our Spear+Sword (currently on Site7). Even if they found a 4th town before we catch them, it shouldn't be a major problem: if our forces are on their way to Korea anyway, then taking down Pacha's last town should only require small detour -- and if we can get to it before it grows, it won't even have had time to build a second defender yet, and will likely auto-raze.
I razed Tiwa as planned, but kept Ollantaytambo and Cuzco because their current locations are good (IMHO!), and will be useful to us once Pacha is dead. So why 'waste' 2 of our own Settlers, just to rebuild those towns? On the subject of rebuilding, Boston will Settler-disband over the IBT, and I changed my mind about re-siting it. Now that Cuzco is ours, I think New Boston should be built 1N, on the Furs across the river, to make room for another coastal town between Washington and Ollant (don't forget, though, that as soon as Boston disappears, our other towns will lose the Furs again, so may need to be checked for potential riots):
I know the marked Site (*) might look crowded to you, but just look at all those food-bonuses! We could road the Forest and mine every other land-tile (for boat-shields) and still harvest more food than we know what to do with! But if you insisted
then we could move it NNW ("Site?") -- even though that would crowd Ollant even worse(but if you Settle on the NE Deer in between those 2 dots, I give you fair warning that I'll abandon that town on my next turnset!
)Chicago will build a Settler soon, which should go to Site 7, and we already have a Settler heading down to Site6 (where the rAxe is: call it Atlanta?), to cut off the Korean's access to the Dyes in Florida:
For the Dyes-town, I'm not sure which tile I eventually prefer for that.
Just for clarity, the circled rAxe is standing on Site6. The dotmapped tile (Site8?) gets the Fish for growth and eventually (after we build a Library) the entire panhandle; OTOH, founding 1E destroys that Jungle-tile in 1T (assuming we can Settle on Jungle in this map?), and also gets one more island-tile (Bahamas?) into the BFC -- but doesn't get the Fish until BFC-expansion happens.
Tech-wise, as expected, we were (much) too late to get the Philosophy free-tech (the Mayans already had time to build/cascade to the Mausoleum!*), but I kept max. SCI% going for Code_Of_Laws nonetheless (now due in 2T, I think?). So we are currently deficit-spending and will run out of cash-reserves soon, BUT we can still sell Writing to Wang for Wheel and all his 160g (I asked, but didn't make that deal yet); and we'll also be able to sell him Philosophy and/or CoL later, if he gets something else we need before it's time to kill him (e.g. Poly, HbR, or MM, which we'll need to advance to the Medieval anyway).
Spoiler * :
If <25T isn't feasible, just do a 50T-run using only a Geek (maybe in Norfolk, until it gets hooked to our Luxes?) That would give us more time to expand across the entire continent, and also build more Curraghs/Galleys to explore and meet overseas Civs, more vSwords to continue the conquest beyond Korea, some vSpears to guard our advancing war-front, and more cash to rebuild our Treasury/ upgrade our remaining (v)Axes -- but obviously also gives Wang (and Smoke, and Monty?) more time to expand as well...
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M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
They're not axes, they're hatchets, my friend. Maybe you need a bigger monitor.
Agreed!
Which was in line with my thinking. It's a bit tricky locating this but we want to get it right because it affects Washington and the port cities on the east coast.
View attachment 549101
I know the marked Site (*) might look crowded to you, but just look at all those food-bonuses! We could road the Forest and mine every other land-tile (for boat-shields) and still harvest more food than we know what to do with! But if you insisted
(but if you Settle on the NE Deer in between those 2 dots, I give you fair warning that I'll abandon that town on my next turnset!
My thing with city locations is simply this: I don't like CxC and CxxC is often necessary if you either are playing AW on a map you expect company on or later you're planting a bunch of totally corrupt science cities. We are not in that situation. As long as we have an equal # of cities CxxxC and CxxC from one another, I'm good with it. It gives us the 12 tiles we need for much of the game in important cities where they are needed. So I'm on board with * city.
Got it.
I'll figure something out. Florida is just ok, not great. Not a lot of food or shields unless you keep all the forests.
It can crank out transports or something like that.
Again, I really don't think the other American tribes are here but we will see. Monty could have spawned on China for all we know. Suffice to say that for reasons that will become apparent in time, we can't afford to let Wang be a viable civ much into the Medieval Age. That would be bad, trust me.
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