I'm new to prince difficulty and i need help !

[MoonZar]

Greetings,

I usually play at Noble level on a large map with standard speed. I usually win with not much trouble on this difficulty.

I'm ready for the next phase, so last week i started to play at Prince. Well as you expected, most of my strategies doesn't work anymore so i need help.

In Prince i'm able to finish third or fourth in the points and manage to have a empire of around 15 cities. But there is always 2-3 civ who become so much powerful that i can't invade them or win the technological race. They usually got about 20-25 cities and 6 more technology then me, so war is not an option...

- I'm not able to do war before 500 AC because i'm too much busy to expend and build
- I try to build as much Cottage i can to keep up in the technological race but i'm usually 4-5 tech behind the leader anyway
- I'm building a barrack in many city because in war i can't produce enough unit fast enough to keep up with my opponent
- War is very difficult because the opponent build more faster then me.
- I'm keeping most of the city i conquer but i raze the city near the cultural frontier of other civ because i'll lost them anyway because of lack of culture.
- I'm able to keep my science bar 60 % and above usually, but early in the expension phase i go down to 40-50 % because i try to have at least 5 city very fast.
- I trade with most of the civ and get too much the "you trade with my worst ennemy" so i got average relation with everybody. I try to trade all science tech i have for other tech to keep up with the leading civ in term of science.
- When i'm able to discover a religion i use many ressource to get my religion to all city i can to have the 1 gold bonus for each city. So i get one of my major city to build missionnaries for a long time.
- I don't build much wonders, do you think that they worth it ? I try to build oracle to get the free tech, but i usually not have much time to build more.
- I have trouble to manage Specialist economy. I know that specialist can get you nice bonus for science and production, but they dont produce food so my city is not able to growth very fast when i do that. Well i dont know how to handle this properly and usually i don't get much Great People. I have read a lot about this on the forum and website, but i still can't have a proper Specialist Economy.

Well can you advise about my situation ? Maybe you can give me some clue where i'm wrong.

MoonZar

 

[Excl]

I think I've beaten prince level before, I can't remember. I've been mostly playing Deity level One City Challenges ... but here are some comments:

I'm not able to do war before 500 AC because i'm too much busy to expend and build

Are you specializing your cities? If you can get one decent production city, you should be able to pump out units there, while you build everywhere else. Plus your military units would help you in your "expansion".

I try to build as much Cottage i can to keep up in the technological race but i'm usually 4-5 tech behind the leader anyway

You might need to work your diplomacy a little more. I usually work one track, and get a high level technology. Then trade it with every other Civ to get all the Techs I missed in the process. This is also a decent way to get some bonus money thrown into the pot, which helps you run science research a little higher than normal.

- I'm building a barrack in many city because in war i can't produce enough of them to keep up with my opponent

I usually have two specialized production cities and have enough to at least defend off any large attacking nation. A small attack force of 10 or so units might be good enough to take a weaker civ's cities.

War is very difficult because the opponent build more faster then me.

Once in the higher levels, Diplomacy is key. Find the religion that most other players are using, or the one that the stronger Civs are using, and convert to that. Then make buddies with just those Civs. Use your buddies to start wars with other Civs and weaken them out. You might be able to get buddies to attack buddies. This is easiest to do right after you research a good tech that nobody has.

- I'm keeping most of the city i conquer but i raze the city near the cultural frontier of other civ because i'll lost them anyway because of lack of culture.
- I'm able to keep my science bar 60 % and above usually, but early in the expension phase i go down to 40-50 % because i try to have the more room possible.

Part of your problem might be that you are expanding too fast, and you're getting killed in maintanence fees. If your science slider isn't above 60% (I like it at 80% or 90%), then you're losing a lot of ground in research. I like to get maybe 4 cities at the start, locking in as many resources as I can. After those 4, you can focus on massing up your troops, and getting some cottages built. Then pick and choose what cities to take based on resources available. With an abundance of resources, you can trade them for "cash per turn" to help pay for your city maintance and give you a positive balance while running at 80-90% science.

- I trade with most of the civ and get too much the "you trade with my worst ennemy" so i got average relation with everybody. I try to trade all science tech i have for other tech to keep up with the leading civ in term of science.

Like I mentioned before ... try to pick a religion, and stick to trading with just those guys. It won't work 100% of the time, but the added bonus of being a "brother in faith" will cancel out any "trading with the enemy" demerits.

- When i'm able to discover a religion i use many ressource to get my religion to all city i can to have the 1 gold bonus for each city. So i get one of my major city to build missionnaries for a long time.

Maybe this is part of the problem as well? I don't know any good religion based strategies, so for the most part I ignore it and go with whatever comes my way, or whatever the most popular religion at the time is. I usually don't bother with training missionaries, as I could use that time to create military units.

- I don't build much wonders, do you think that they worth it ? I try to build oracle to get the free tech, but i usually not have much time to build more.

Probably a good idea. There are only two good ways of getting wonders at the higher levels. The first is to chop rush a wonder early on, so Stonehenge is a good one to do. I also like to time the completion of Stonehenge so that it's finished right after I've researched a tech that gives me access to a much higher tech. If you can't chop rush some of the earlier wonders, then don't bother until you are the most technologically advanced Civ out there. In the late game, I might go for something like the three gorges dam or the pentagon.

 

[MoonZar]

Are you specializing your cities? If you can get one decent production city, you should be able to pump out units there, while you build everywhere else. Plus your military units would help you in your "expansion".

My method is not very detailled. I try to don't build something not useful in a city. For exemple if a city produce only 8-10 science i won't bother building librairy and other stuff like this. However i try to specialize, for exemple i do a city with only cottage to do a commerce city specialized in Money and/or Science. I build all money and/or science building in this kind of city. I usually do both (money and science improvement) for my bigger cities with only cottage.

My other kind of city is one for production, where i try to have many mine, lumbermill and windmill. I dont build workshop because i will have a lack of food to growth the city. I usually use this kind of city to build the heroic wonder and make one of these city my main unit building city.

I usually don't do a city with only food to do a Specialist farm. This kind of city need terrain who have lot of food like river, flood plain and grassland. I usually use this terrain for a commerce city. I really don't known how to handle Specialist Economy properly i guess.

When i go to conquest i usually keep the conquered cities as they were and i build first a courthouse. They became usually average city who can produce science and unit, these city are not specialized. So i build barrack in each of them and also librairie and other stuff. I dont build science building in a city with low science production or barrack in a city who can't produce enough hammer.

You might need to work your diplomacy a little more. I usually work one track, and get a high level technology. Then trade it with every other Civ to get all the Techs I missed in the process. This is also a decent way to get some bonus money thrown into the pot, which helps you run science research a little higher than normal.

I'll try your one track idea to have more tech that the other civ don't have. But in the beginning i don't have much choice to find all the tech that can make your worker make improvement. I usually go first for bronze working to chop down for settler or the oracle.

I usually have two specialized production cities and have enough to at least defend off any large attacking nation. A small attack force of 10 or so units might be good enough to take a weaker civ's cities.

In my last game in prince i needed 30-40 unit to conquest a civ of 10 cities. He had a lot of troop. We was in the medieval era and i was spain (random leader i usually prefer financial civ like england). I used catapult, Conquistador and Elephant mix because my opponent had a lot of mounted unit (horse archer mainly).

This was a very hard war, usually when i go to war i use theocracy and police state and build only unit, so my civ don't growth much in war time. In the meantime the two leading civ killed one of the other civ each and had 800 point advance on me. The game was hopeless after this war, the Persian had 20-25 city and the french too.

Once in the higher levels, Diplomacy is key. Find the religion that most other players are using, or the one that the stronger Civs are using, and convert to that. Then make buddies with just those Civs. Use your buddies to start wars with other Civs and weaken them out. You might be able to get buddies to attack buddies. This is easiest to do right after you research a good tech that nobody has.

I founded Boudhism in my last game with spain. I changed my religion to Judaism to get the same religion as the most powerful civ who was the Persian. But i got one huge problem with this strategy, i didn't have anything they want to trade.

They had about 6 technology more then me and had most of the ressource. So i didn't really trade with them except one ressource once in a while for gold per turn. So i irritated them a little by trading with their worst enemy but they still was pleased because we had the same religion. Still, i was not able to make them fight with me another civ, i didn't have this option available. The mouseover said that they had nothing to gain or they will betray their close friend.

In the meantime, i send many misionnaries of my own religion in the leading civ and he finally change for the religion i founded, boudhism. After that, i did the same thing with other civ so that they change to boudhism and i changed finaly my religion for boudhism and had about 50 gold per turn for 50 city with my religion.

I don't know if all this work worth it, but these gold per turn was very nice. I made a money city with my holy capital of boudhism and had a lot of money to get back on track with science. I was able to be only 3-4 tech behind the leader but this was too late.

Part of your problem might be that you are expanding too fast, and you're getting killed in maintanence fees. If your science slider isn't above 60% (I like it at 80% or 90%), then you're losing a lot of ground in research. I like to get maybe 4 cities at the start, locking in as many resources as I can. After those 4, you can focus on massing up your troops, and getting some cottages built. Then pick and choose what cities to take based on resources available. With an abundance of resources, you can trade them for "cash per turn" to help pay for your city maintance and give you a positive balance while running at 80-90% science.

Well if i don't do that i'm stuck with only 4 city and have all other civ around me with no place to expend except war. I guess that's the point of the whole idea right ?

Maybe this is part of the problem as well? I don't know any good religion based strategies, so for the most part I ignore it and go with whatever comes my way, or whatever the most popular religion at the time is. I usually don't bother with training missionaries, as I could use that time to create military units.

Are you sure that the gold per turn for religion with your city don't worth it ? You can make your holy capital a money city and make 200 gold per turn with the right building like bank, market place and wallstreet later.

By the way, thanks you for your reply,

MoonZar

 

[Excl]

My method is not very detailled. I try to don't build something not useful in a city. For exemple if a city produce only 8-10 science i won't bother building librairy and other stuff like this. However i try to specialize, for exemple i do a city with only cottage to do a commerce city specialized in Money and/or Science. I build all money and/or science building in this kind of city. I usually do both (money and science improvement) for my bigger cities with only cottage.

My other kind of city is one for production, where i try to have many mine, lumbermill and windmill. I dont build workshop because i will have a lack of food to growth the city. I usually use this kind of city to build the heroic wonder and make one of these city my main unit building city.

I usually don't do a city with only food to do a Specialist farm. This kind of city need terrain who have lot of food like river, flood plain and grassland. I usually use this terrain for a commerce city. I really don't known how to handle Specialist Economy properly i guess.

When i go to conquest i usually keep the conquered cities as they were and i build first a courthouse. They became usually average city who can produce science and unit, these city are not specialized. So i build barrack in each of them and also librairie and other stuff. I dont build science building in a city with low science production or barrack in a city who can't produce enough hammer.

Sounds like you're doing the right thing for the most part. You might try the specialist farm though. You don't have to use your best grassland/river spot for it. I find the extra scientists it generate go a long way towards researching techs. Sometimes I hang onto them, and use them to research bigger techs later in the game.

As for production, I'd have 2 cities that are nothing but production, and all the rest are money/science. With cottages, most of your cities should be able to put out a decent commerce output. It's only the ones up in the mountains that don't really work. If you can't turn a city into a decent money maker with cottages or decent production city with hammers ... it might be best to pillage it or not found it. You might have a big hole in your borders, but other Civs won't be able to develop it much either ... and you'll likely get it to culture flip back to you later in the game anyway.

I'll try your one track idea to have more tech that the other civ don't have. But in the beginning i don't have much choice to find all the tech that can make your worker make improvement. I usually go first for bronze working to chop down for settler or the oracle.

I guess it depends on a person's preference, I usually get Bronze Working and Archery ... and MAYBE fishing. I then push for Alphabet, and get everything else through trading Writing and Alphabet. I think you end up getting Pottery while getting up to Writing, so you end up getting most of what you really need early enough. You can then get the rest after trading the advanced techs. I also try to trade with the weaker Civs first, so as not to give the bigger Civs an advantage.

In my last game in prince i needed 30-40 unit to conquest a civ of 10 cities. He had a lot of troop. We was in the medieval era and i was spain (random leader i usually prefer financial civ like england). I used catapult, Conquistador and Elephant mix because my opponent had a lot of mounted unit (horse archer mainly).

I meant when attacking earlier in the game. I think this is a little too late to be attacking as most Civs are established at this point.

In the meantime, i send many misionnaries of my own religion in the leading civ and he finally change for the religion i founded, boudhism. After that, i did the same thing with other civ so that they change to boudhism and i changed finaly my religion for boudhism and had about 50 gold per turn for 50 city with my religion.

I don't know if all this work worth it, but these gold per turn was very nice. I made a money city with my holy capital of boudhism and had a lot of money to get back on track with science. I was able to be only 3-4 tech behind the leader but this was too late.

Like I said, I don't know how effective this is, because I don't really try it. In theory you could spend that time building a military that could pillage more than 50 gold per turn.

I'm usually aggressive early on, capturing any cities that might be useful later on, and wiping out any Civs that could be trouble later on (ie: Monte). By around 0 AD, I've gone completely peaceful, and I'm doing nothing but research until I've got tanks. Then it's just a matter of taking out a Civ before they win the space race ... or just winning the space race yourself.

So back to religion ... I just tend to avoid it because with developed cities, I'm usually making enough money anyway, and I haven't used up turns building my missionary army. Maybe one of these days I'll play that way just to see what happens.

Are you sure that the gold per turn for religion with your city don't worth it ? You can make your holy capital a money city and make 200 gold per turn with the right building like bank, market place and wallstreet later.

I've been able to build something close to that, just with cottages and a developed city. I don't really have a problem with money in the later years of my games, because I've built enough financial cities. It might be nice to have that money bonus from religion, but I don't know how much it's setting you back from having to build all those missionaries.

 

[MoonZar]

Thanks for all the new information. Here is attach my last prince game i was talking about in my previous post. If you have any insight of what i did wrong you're more then welcome to give comment.

On this save game i just finish my war with the germany and as i said Perse and France are very strong.

MoonZar

EDIT : I removed my save game because the topic was getting old...

 

[Excl]

EDIT : I removed my save game because the topic was getting old...

Doh, I was just about to come and download it!

 

[MoonZar]

Here you go So this my last game at prince in vanilla. Now i'm playing at warlord with not much success at prince yet.

Thanks for the time !

 

[Excl]

Vanilla and Warload? Those must be expansion pack terms?

I loaded the game and did a quick once over of your cities. You look fairly well developed, and you are TOO far behind in the tech race. I did notice a few things though that might help you out. I just hope I remember them all!

One, you city specialization seemed a little iffy. A lot of your cities had a lot of production in them. You should probably only have 2-3 cities that are strictly for production. The others you should be trying to squeeze as much gold as you can possibly get out of them. Some cities had mines on hills, where there probably could of been a cottage or a windmill. I saw other cities that looked like they should be commerce cities, that had lumbermills. If you peg a city to be a commerce city, then go all out.

Two, I saw you had a few great specialists assigned in your capitol. Don't use specialists unless you are going for a full on Specialist Economy! Those guys could of been used to help you gain a few techs earlier in the game.

Three, along the same lines, I didn't see a dedicated Great Person Farm. Designate one city to be your GPF, and farm land the heck out of it. Use your scientists and other city specialists to generate GP points. Those great people go a long way to helping you get technology.

Four, You could trade your resources a bit more. Right away I was able to trade a deer for 15 gold per turn to one leader, and some corn to another for 10 gold per turn. That extra bit of gold let me bump the slider up to 90% science research and still run with a money surplus.

Hope that helps some! I'm going to try and play a Prince level game again, just to see how I do. It's been awhile.

 

[MoonZar]

Vanilla is a term for the main game, and warload is a typo for warlord.

I think i dont something very wrong somewhere in my progression.

I tried 3 game in a row at prince in warlord and always the same result. I'm able to do a early war but as soon i take 2-3 city in a good spot my science slider go to 40-50 for a while and i get very far in tech race. If i only raze my ennemi city this doesn't much because the other civ take the empty place to build.

On a game with 8 civ i'm usually 4-5 in the rank by point, the leader have at least more then 500 pts beside me.

I guess i should practice again...

Thanks for everything,

MoonZar

 

[Excl]

Oh one other minor thing I remembered. You can chop jungles where you have a camp (for something such as irony). You don't lose the resource, and you'll gain a food point on that square.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Although you'd do well not to go mad for them (and never depend on getting them), grabbing a wonder or two early on is both effective and achievable at Prince (including on Warlords). aelf's EMC threads show that its even possible to pick up some key wonders at Emperor, if you've got the skill to pull it off.

For example, on Warlords/Prince, I just nailed the GL/ToA/Colussus combo after a rapid early expansion, without leaving the backdoor open or falling behind in tech. I'm now blasting ahead of my neighbours and will soon be using maces and cats to smite their puny archers and axes. Of course, I had to sacrifice the early war for the sake of getting the wonders built. But since I'll now go to war with superior troops, and the wonders will keep my research up whilst I churn out the troops and absorb those enemy cities, the trade-off was definitely worth it.

So don't write off wonder building altogether. Sometimes they're too much of an ask, and other times there'll be better things you could do instead. But in the right circumstances they can make all the difference.

(One useful trick, which I picked up from EMC3, is to build the Great Wall for the GE-points (with the barb-protection being a very useful bonus). If you've got stone then the wonder can be built/chopped quickly, and in 100 turns (on Epic speed) you'll get a GE which can be used to build one of the more pricey wonders as soon as it becomes available. In effect, you can pick up an expensive wonder for the price of a cheap one, with the added bonus of no barb troubles! ).

Edit: Sorry, it's 100 turns for the first GP on normal speed, not epic (150 turns iirc).

 

[harusame]

15 cities are in my opinion too many

 

[MoonZar]

Hello,

Well i'm a little desesperate right now

In my last game, i was Japan (random leader), on prince and epic speed with the warlord expension.

I was able to build a good army before 900 BC. This was incredible, i never was ready for war so fast. I had about 10 archer and 10 chariots, and i was starting to build axeman and spearman and very soon swordman.

So after 4 city i started to attack one of the next civ who was France. I was able to hit him pretty badly and took his capital, took his second best city and raze two other city.

After taking these two cities i was about 30 % on my science bar and this was the begining of the end.

I maked a poor choice in technologies, so i had nothing that i could build to counter unhappy face. I didn't have religion and was not lucky enought that a religion spreed to one of my city to spread it for build temple.

Also i had writing very late, and i could not trade technologies.

I had still a big army but didn't have catapult so the defence of the cities was to high to finish the civ and raze the last cities.

This took me about 1000 years to get back my economie on track. I invaded Paris around 0 AC and my science was back on 60 % around 900-1000 AC (EPIC speed). I had still a good army but my neighbord was all friend to each other in the area and when i attacked one, i was in war with 4 of them a couple of turn after.

Also one of the civ (Inca i think) who was the leader was friendly with everybody and was doing massive tech trading with them. So everybody was 7-8 technologies in front of me.

Finally i got writing, and saw that i was about 8 technologies late from the leader. Also i was around 600 pts behind him by the year 1300 AC, so i didn't finish the game.

My incredible fast army building was no good. I really hate these maintenance cost. Maybe i should only pick Organized civ or always one with financial. But i try random these day because i never can't make my mind to wich civ take.

Well, the step from noble to prince is very difficult for me...

MoonZar

 

[MoonZar]

15 cities are in my opinion too many

Hello,

What is the number you think is better and why ? Do you only raze city after you have the desired number when you take city from other civ ?

By the way, i didn't find an option to disband a city after it was founded or conquered. Does someone know if this feature exist ?

 

[harusame]

Hello,

What is the number you think is better and why ? Do you only raze city after you have the desired number when you take city from other civ ?

By the way, i didn't find an option to disband a city after it was founded or conquered. Does someone know if this feature exist ?

you can destroy city after you conquered it
you cant disband city you founded

in my opinion, all you need early game is 4 cities only
otherwise your economy will get screwed
after currency, you may consider to expand more

as well, you dont need barrack in every city, but only in 1 or 2 production cities (with hill/plains, copper/iron)

it's pointless to build barrack in commerce cities, because basically those cities will be either:
1. will never see a war or
2. dont have enough hammer to produce fast unit

 

[manu-fan]

15 cities are in my opinion too many

It doesn't have to be too many.

As long as they are all profitable, you'll be OK. Heck, switch 5 of them over to produce nothing but wealth or science if needs be.

If you go for domination, like I do, you'll end up with way more cities than you really should have, but just need to manage them so they are producing income.

IMHO.

Cheers.

 

[dragomaster]

First of all, you dont have any big time productive citys. you only have monney citys with cottages. barcelona is the only city with potential. Get some watermills up there and mine the hills instead of windmill them.

I whod start a war against Huayana. but wait and se what Cyrus is planing. He have enough in he's hands he say when you point the mouse on "start war against Napoleon".
Beacous Napoleon is pleased thowards Huayana it could end up with Napoleon attacking you during your rush thoward Huayana's citys, so lets hope Cyrus is planing to attack Napoleon. that could leave your back free during that war. wholden't that be great

Wy you should attack Huayana? Becouse if you attack napoleon if Cyrus attack him, you whod leave your backyard open for Huayana yo attack you. And thats not good. look how germany sufferd during WWII; two fron war is not good.

so lets hope Cyrus attack Napoleon and start to build units. On monarch level you whold be in big truble now with that lame army.

 

[Excl]

So after 4 city i started to attack one of the next civ who was France. I was able to hit him pretty badly and took his capital, took his second best city and raze two other city.

After taking these two cities i was about 30 % on my science bar and this was the begining of the end.

How far away were these cities, and what was the maintanence costs for them? Like someone mentioned, you could probably get by with 4 early, but I wouldn't think 6 could break you either.

I maked a poor choice in technologies, so i had nothing that i could build to counter unhappy face. I didn't have religion and was not lucky enought that a religion spreed to one of my city to spread it for build temple.

Also i had writing very late, and i could not trade technologies.

Writing and Alphabet should come right away! After I get Archery and Bronze Working ... I go Pottery to get cottages, and that allows me to research Writing & Alphabet next. With those 5 techs you should have everything you need. Archery for defenders, BW for copper, axemen and chop rushing, Pottery for cottages, Writing to get libraries in your GP Farm & Science cities and Alphabet to trade for all the techs you skipped.

I had still a big army but didn't have catapult so the defence of the cities was to high to finish the civ and raze the last cities.

I wouldn't worry too much about attacking every single city, unless you are sure you can wipe out the Civ. Take the cities with the resources you need, and leave the ones with bad placement for the other Civ to deal with.

This took me about 1000 years to get back my economie on track. I invaded Paris around 0 AC and my science was back on 60 % around 900-1000 AC (EPIC speed). I had still a good army but my neighbord was all friend to each other in the area and when i attacked one, i was in war with 4 of them a couple of turn after.

This is just me, but after the first initial war, I just wait for people to declare on me, then attack them. I don't actively look for a war, because it usually hurts my relations with everyone. Try to pay attention to who likes who in the relations screen. If you notice one of your neighbors has fallen out of favor with everyone else, one of the other Civs might ask you to go to war with them. Although it will still hurt some relations, you'll gain favor with the Civ that asked you to come help them.

Also one of the civ (Inca i think) who was the leader was friendly with everybody and was doing massive tech trading with them. So everybody was 7-8 technologies in front of me.

Finally i got writing, and saw that i was about 8 technologies late from the leader. Also i was around 600 pts behind him by the year 1300 AC, so i didn't finish the game.

You're getting writting WAY too late. Like I mentioned above, you should be the first to writting and alphabet, and use that as leverage to trade and get all the techs you don't have yet.

My incredible fast army building was no good. I really hate these maintenance cost. Maybe i should only pick Organized civ or always one with financial. But i try random these day because i never can't make my mind to wich civ take.

Civ selection does start to play a big part on how you should play. If you have a militarteristic leader trait, then you should be a war monger. Since you are just starting out on this level, I'd suggest you play with Washington, since he's both Financial and Organized. Once you get more familiar with the difficulty, then you can mix it up.

 

[MoonZar]

Thanks for all the advises. I had practice a lot lately, but i'm lossing game after game, i opened a new topic with my last game if you want to look into it.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=206356

Maybe someday i'm gonna find what wrong with my thinking, i'm missing something...