Immortal Challenge

[Gumbolt]

That is a different map Bic? It's also deity level too.

 

[krikav]

Hello BiC, how nice of you to stop by!
I'll take the oppoertunity now, in case you fall back to the shadows;
Thanks for all the thoughtful posts you have all over the forums, your tries on the Mao map in "Isolation workshop" was of some aid to me learning alternative ways to tackle things. Sort of cured me of my dread for early marble attempts!

 

[Gumbolt]

I have a bad habit of starting and not finishing games.That and staying awake. You might tempt me for later.

Afterall who really wants an easy immortal challenge? I think undefeatable just likes the easy challenges.

 

[Fish Man]

Thanks. That will probably happen.

@ Gumbolt : There's more chance of them running away with the game than really giving you a mean and mad challenge.
I think it's "something different". Not necessarily "hard" if you navigate properly. I don't finish my games either.

Few sights @ 1000 BC :

Spoiler :

Before 2000 BC : Alphabet is popped, Oracle is gone. That's why those AIs are in the game. They're reliable at doing that.
Right after 2000 BC : neighbour in the North has me surrounded with 3 cities. That conveniently solves any barbarian troubles.
1600 BC : Confucianism has been founded. The Great Wall has NOT been built.
1000 BC : 3 more AIs have Alphabet. An AI has 12 cities, another has 9.
Hereditary Rule + Organized Religion switch is in range and foreign religion has spread (1 turn before my switch but could be earlier in other runs).
Forward wonder has its use for culture war (defence, really).
Only 2 cottages were built because the land is food poor. It is, however, hammer and commerce rich.
The jungle belt can be settled for profit Jungle !!

But...I want my doublegold doubleriver triplefood BFC .

 

[Gumbolt]

Not tried it yet. I am no deity expert. Certainly not at your level. I am finishing off a private game and have a Cookbook to do. This is a tough start on your save. Hopefully Lain will give it a go. Sounds like the air have a lot of land.

 

[Fish Man]

Turn 100 : What did you do ? How do you fare ? Did you kill them already nasty neighbours ? Is the game "in the bag" ? What's your level of confidence for the turns to come ?
Do you have a plan or something of the like ?

My take, for reference :

Spoiler :

I feel it's pretty bad, at least it's looking grim. I couldn't expand as much as I'd have wanted to and breaking out will be a problem.
I'm still holding my own, tech-wise, but I really lack both commerce and production. Food, really.

Neighbours : Hannibal and Justinian both have 15 cities and keep expanding. Huayna pease-vassaled to Hannibal.
Peter has hill cities everywhere. Warring is really looking ugly.
Justinian has a nasty Buddhist holy city putting a ton of pressure in the NW.

Commerce : Commerce output is flat because of the lack of food specials. This is very worrying, long-term.
There used to be a super juicy barb city in the jungle (banana, gems, spices). But it was on a hill with 5 archers. And Hannibal got it.
I couldn't even claim the eastern tiles with a settler (culture pressure) because Peter blocked the area first. I was probably too slow, there. The extra banana would be extremely good to have. I probably should have recognized that I'd never capture the barb city and built my settler before the handful of axes I have. The more I look at it, the worse it is.

Still, that barb city being captured opens up a small peninsula for me to settle. There's a barb city up for capture.

Scouting : pretty bad. Training a scout right now. Also need a galley of some sort.

Trading : I do that quite liberally. I don't have any sort of lead but I could stay in the game.
The AIs do trade a lot between themselves anyway. I'm not sure that not trading would be a way to gain a lead. e.g. : I didn't trade Music to anybody but Willem researched it and, now, most AIs have it.
Gold is not scarce.

Goodies : Got the Parthenon, Great Library and Music Artist.

Plan for expansion : Sistine Chapel. That's kinda bad but that's where I'm at. Like... I could unlock Hwachas+War Elephants in an instant but I don't have the production to take on any neighbour.
I could try and attack Peter but, then, there's a serious risk of being out-teched right out of the game.
I think culture pressure + scouting has better chances, for now. Find some food to work with before trying to run an army. Pop count is sad. 32 worked tiles. There are plenty of luxury resources but they're useless without food.
Maybe I can dogpile at some point. I would do that. Waiting isn't really a receipe for success.

Few pics :

Spoiler :

^ Nicomedia settled like... 1960 BC. Thessalonica could eat up all my tiles.

^ "spot" is bad but has forests. 2 Carthaginian cities put culture on the cows, so claiming them, even in the first ring, would be difficult.
Pyongyang could lose its fish to Thessalonica, if I'm not careful.

^ Lost opportunity area. Having a city 1E of the bananas would change a LOT. First the food, then the cultural pressure on Mycenian. I could actually flip it.
At least, I'm finally starting to develop Cheju. It can do +12 food off of 3 tiles. Maybe I should build a Globe Theatre there. Unlocking the Heroic Epic would also give a start towards something.

^^ Not so hot. GNP is probably worse than it looks.

Spoiler :

I determined, after seeing how close Justinian was, drastic measures were needed to not be boxed in. And so...the 1pop settler strat! Worker->immediately settler, helped with chops. Tech: BW->agri->fishing->hunting->AH->pottery. We're gonna need a well-executed construction rush if we're gonna pull this one off, against our Buddhist neighbor, but after that sub-t250 space should be pretty straightforward. You've returned after a long hiatus and now it's time for us folks to present the power of the new deity meta!

 

[Fish Man]

t73

Spoiler :

Got math, traded it for masonry and sailing. A ripoff, to be sure, but I guess I gotta bite the bullet. You weren't lying about Peter getting 2000BC alpha.

That doesn't matter though. It's full steam towards construction now. Phants and pults should completely pulverize Justinian, giving me enough land to lib cuirs. After that I can wipe the floor with everyone until rifles (but that should be pretty far off).

The AIs' overexpansion actually hurts them before the medieval era, since after city 7 or so, without any good tiles to work in new cities, even a deity AI begins to feel the load of maintenance. Which is why I have to strike, and strike soon.

Construction will be good tradebait. The AIs basically don't trade that tech around until almost literally everyone has it...so I can be reasonably sure I can get the most mileage out of it.

 

[Gumbolt]

Undefeatable playing a game without huge swathes of flood plains or commerce resources? What is happening!

Looks like you are managing this challenge quite well. AI on Deity expand so fast it's crazy! That and spam units.

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

OK...Justin and Hannibal got 500BC feudalism. And then Peter got machinery 2 turns later.

Guess I'm gonna have to try a different approach next time.

 

[Fish Man]

^ Arf ! Do you have a picture for that time ? What's your war prep looking like ?

Spoiler :

Is Peter a conceivable target ? I think the Elephant plan can be valid if the stack that's assembled doesn't suffer too many losses (which ain't guaranteed by any means). Elephants are very costly and tend to die a lot, compared with swords or maces (my opinion). I know peeps like them a lot. I think they drain the eco too much.
Going 'Phants, the risk is real that you're taken out of the trading game. If the warring is successful, different story.

@ opening, here's what I did :
Worker does farm, camp, mine, then pasture when AH is in. Then the camp is swapped for the pasture.
Tile swap because the capital cannot conceivably grow to size 4 before starting on a settler.

So, capital's build order is :
size 1 worker
size 3 settler, worker, settler, (?) settler
City 2 : chop workboat, then worker at size 2
City 3 : also contributed a worker, I suppose
I intended that last settler from the capital to share the gold, so as to allow growth to size 4. Scouting revealed the SE spot, however (rice, copper) and that took priority.
I had 4 workers at this point and an abundance of improved tiles, so I think I grew to size 4 on gold+granary, then 2 turns of no-gold+farms, then I didn't need the settler to share the gold anymore (settler at size 4 went on the coast ; maybe should have blocked land towards Peter).

If you're going to toy with starts, maybe skipping Hunting is good.
Go, farm, farm, mine, pasture. Don't need the mine before size 3. Need to check the timings to see if the 2nd farm is doable in time.

I don't think the settler at size 1 really is a good idea. It delays growth too much, meaning you lose much tile yields. Working all three of wheat, cows, gold should be the primary objective.

If you wanna claim land, I think the riverside that I missed in the south is a fine target for cities 4+.

Spoiler :

Elephants are not the only thing you rush with. The point is to combine elepault (or in this case hwachaphant) to create a truly unstoppable army. Here before medieval era I would've easily crushed even a 10-city deity AI...hwachaphants have no weaknesses and can shred anything in a city no problem. But of course Justinian bots straight for feudalism.

 

[Fish Man]

Spoiler :

Attempt 2. It's straight to cuirs here, no detours.

Several things went favorably this time. Justin seemed to have some barb troubles, and I trolled Peter by settling a pretty decent spot 1 turn before he could.

Got 6 cities by t76...I sustained my economy with mostly 2 gold mines. Capital seems to be really wanting for food so might settle a helper city down south to work the gold with bananas.

Traded aesth and then alpha around for some pretty sweet deals.

 

[Gumbolt]

Up to 5 cities but worst enemy of Justin. Need to attack him before he attacks me.

 

[Gumbolt]

These AI are bonkers. They spam sooo many units. Ceasefire?

 

[Gumbolt]

Hmmm looking at Bics saved he is way ahead of me academy and science wise.

Spoiler Update :

You have the Korean UU here? Why do you need phants?

I will likely take a ceasefire and start war again. He is way too dangerous even without his capital. Trouble is I will upset neighbours.

So I took 5 cities of Justin and he still has 9 left. This map has way too much land!

Took peace for several basic techs. Need to bulb philosophy to stand any chance to grab techs here. I am years behind the AI here. Albeit I have 10 cities now.

 

[Fish Man]

t98

Spoiler :

Got to music first and backfilled half the classical era with it. Aesth -> lit -> music is soooo handy on deity where nobody goes for it but everyone still wants it. And got there first, so free golden age on-demand. For music ALONE I got: HBR, metal casting, compass, calendar, currency, and CoL! Mansa's a handy partner to have . My bpt is actually slightly above average now.

People are expanding to worrying sizes. But so long as nobody gets rifles, everything falls to cuirs.

Got a worker shortage, but good news is don't need that many improved tiles, yet. Also border pressure is starting to get worrying...but if I get to keep my 1st ring tiles at least then I'll be a happy man.

Sniped the barb city from Willem and had to pay the diplomatic price. But he's weak and far. And will accept just a cheap tech for peace. So all's good in that department, I think.

 

[Fish Man]

Looking good, there, Undefeatable

Spoiler :

Tech pace seems under control. Maybe you're a bit late on gpp but that shouldn't bite you back too much.
You've got good control over the land, good commerce. (Nice NE corner, up there.)
You didn't want to commit to Buddhism, no ? Civics are good, I think. The diplo points can come in handy, too, jump AIs to Friendly and avoid WFYABTA threshold.

How do you propose to build Cuirassiers ? Trading for both iron and horses is going to cost a ton. Turn the slider off for 10+ turns ? Upgrade Elephants ? Will you have the gpp for Merchants ? Can't build the National Epic in the Great Library city if you wanna upgrade...
If you wanna whip, you're also going to need more farms than you currently have.
I think you have some solving to do, there. Can't have all of Academy, bulbs and upgrades, or can you ? Is it better to raise the gold slider for upgrades, then ?
Is it worth it to skip the Academy ? Seems counter-intuitive, but maybe, if you're gonna move the palace, that is.
re-edit : Justinian & Hannibal have a "we don't like you enough" clause against trading horses/iron.

Depending on your war targets, I'd be weary of the culture pressure. Maybe that's just me, I like fighting over tiles with culture.

edited

t122, I had this happen, opening up perspectives :

Spoiler :

Hannibal DoWed Peter right after his army came back from the barb city I captured.
Vassal Huayna asked I join the fight and I inclined. I'd rather dogpile with mish-mash than wait for Rifles and be too late to the party.
Anyway :
A roaming Russian chariot captures undefended Ulsan. I queue up a counter-unit but IBT Hannibal snipes the city for his own benefit.
What's Ulsan, you ask ? Glad you asked, this is the city :

So 1 of 2 things happen, here :
- An Apostolic Palace gives me the city back. Hopefully Hannibal rebuilds my granary, maybe some extra infrastructure. I don't have much hopes for my Theatre ;
- I can steal at... what do you think the discount is gonna be on that city ? This is actually a pretty good map for espionage to begin with. (I'm not thinking espionage slider but rather passive generation, Security Bureaus and stuff.)

Tech wise, Lib is 1 turn and a half from completion. Justinian traded me Guilds last turn. Replaceable Parts appears as an 8 turns tech in the tree. It would be neat to trade for Gunpowder.
Mansa/Willem confirmed going for Astronomy, so I feel pretty safe on that front.

Spoiler :

Good progress but Justin is looking scary. 19 cities means 1300s-1400s infantry. Be prepared for that...one way or another.

As for me...the best way to get rid of culture pressure, is by taking cities. So that's what I'm gonna do. Turn 118 and I'm 10 turns from cuirs...325 AD will be probably tied for the earliest I ever got them. Lib MT, tech gunpowder...then it's killing time .

Justin doesn't seem to be getting cataphracts anytime soon. With any luck I won't have to face one at all. Cut off his iron or horses and then he'll just be easy pickings at that point.

In my game Hannibal, Peter, and Justin are tied for "got way too much land and potential runaway" prize. I think I have a good chance of taking them on before rifles, though. And the Inca gave me a sweet deal for iron. Well...it was a bloody ripoff but paying only ivory, deer, and marble in terms of resources I didn't have extras of wasn't as bad as I expected (yes, I realize I have no copper but copper doesn't do anything iron can't, except for two wonders that I'll never touch). That barb city is really beginning to shine, with 3 health resources ripe for trading in its initial 9-tile square. Plus denying it to Justin, AND it's going to be a splendid cuir whip factory in just a dozen turns.

You might notice that I have a lot of money. That's because Parthenon and SoZ went, and...some AIs had 100s of failgold. Cashed in with stuff like HBR and drama, the latter of which helped me research philo faster too. With NE + GLib in cap, got the 2 GS I needed to bulb edu, and one coming up for PP as well (though maybe I should just get one from Cheju instead, ran 2 scientists there for ages for nothing...).

One thing...Mansa has engineering and probably will have guilds soon. I shouldn't...but at the same time I want so badly to give him philo + edu for both, once I get lib. Can't hurt to have just 1 guy ahead, right? Sooo tempted to feed the Mansabeast now...might regret that later.

Overall...situation looks good. As long as no surprises come my way, it should be smooth sailing!

 

[Gumbolt]

Soooo

Spoiler Thoughts on my game. :

I think the worker steal kind of upset Justin. I should of kept him down at 2 cities if possible. I could of also blocked off the land north of me to stop him expanding further. He was definately plotting before I attacked with my proper stack. The problem with no iron was that my axes were at risk to his chariots. A sword or 2 would of helped. Spears are okay but still quite weak. I never truly killed his stack in the first proper war.

I lost a few units due to his big stack in my second war. He had more units than my axes could initially kill. I never really found his stack when I attacked with my large stack. My stack got divided when I took a ceasefire which slowed me down badly.

Just noticed I hadn't traded gold for resources too. Worth over 30-35 GPT.

I have recovered it slightly 3 turns on. Traded for Compass, monarchy, PH, CS and MC. Ai are still leagues ahead of me techwise with Machinery, lit, aeth and fuedalism. I have a decent stack to attack Justin again. Maybe I should of taken a ceasefire there. He is quickly becoming behind in science here.

The big danger is a dow from hannibal or Russians. I have no Ai at pleased here. I can only switch into bud which would create a lot of enemies.

I don't normally play deity but gotta try it as I can normally beat immortal. One early sucessful war on immortal normally leads to a win.

 

[Gumbolt]

Played on a bit to 580ad. Still alive!

Spoiler Update 580ad :

Main weakness of save is lack of great people. Too much focus on war has cost me in some respects. Justin would be a monster if I had not. Carthage has a huge stack just sitting there. If he attacks it is pretty much game over.

I managed to grab lib around 560ad or so. Took printing press. Still behind Ai on tech. They just seem to tech like crazy!

Took 3 more Justin cities. He just keeps spamming mini stacks. Maybe I should of targeted his capital instead of his more northern cities. I have run out of UU now so the war looks to be ending.

I have 14 cities which is more than most AI at present. On a smaller map I would probably be biggest empire in term of cities. Just frustrated by a capital struggling to grow above size 8.

I traded off lib for 1000+ gold here.

Need to decide tech route here. I have spammed cottages but watermills and workshops could help in some cities.

 

[Fish Man]

t153 update

Spoiler :

I attacked 520AD, with barely a dozen cuirs. The lack of food was really hurting...it felt as if I could only whip half as much as I normally But my gambit paid off. Justin had neither maces nor cataphracts yet, and in fact had barely finished expanding. He didn't have much of a stack, just scattered garrisons in his now almost 20 cities. And his fate was sealed when I bribed Mansa on him, who against all odds actually landed something resembling an army off the southwestern portion of his empire, tying up quite a few phants and HAs (yes...horse archers...when some AIs already had physics).

By 860AD he had capped, and in the process I gained about a dozen cities, now up to over 20. For all intents and purposes, the game is won - now it is only a question of when. Nobody's even started on RP yet (I think) so my cavs will have free reign over the rest of the continent for at least a couple hundred years, hopefully. Peter and Hannibal are tied up in a silly little war with Gandhi (it's silly since they can't reach him, idk what these AIs are thinking). That barb city up north truly paid dividends, and having Willem hate my guts was a small price to pay for almost single-handedly winning the war in the north - it whipped enough cuirs to take out not only some invading HAs but also Justin's 3 northernmost cities. 3 workable food specials means a cuir every 3 turns.

I'm beginning to suffer from emancipation anger (and also heavy whip anger in some high-food cities), but none of that should matter once I wrap some quick wars up and get Justin's former luxuries online. One GREAT thing about deity AIs: they're useful as teching partners all the way until the end, even as 5-city vassals. I can nab constitution from Justin, the electricity line from Peter, and then maybe steel/communism from whoever's going for those, once I vassal them. This can continue all the way to the modern era; I probably won't have to touch things like radio or fission, getting them basically for free in effect. Literally a 60-70% saving on beakers I have to spend, when you think about it.

Considering HE in cap. Would make it so I can't build Oxford there...but on a difficulty and speed like this the immediate gain is far more important. In fact once I have 30-40 cities (bound to happen with this much land), I might not even need a single university, instead powering my research with a pure hammer economy. Maintenance is already taking a toll - SP can't come quick enough.

Tech pace is ridiculously faster than I've seen before, even on deity. 600sAD physics courtesy of Peter...and once Hannibal actually starts teching he'll go off the rails. If your goal was to double the amount of land every single AI could have, @BornInCantaloup ...well, congratulations, you accomplished it. "Little" 8-city HC almost beat me to economics and is going all sorts of places that I would've never imagined a puny vassal like him would go (it's a good thing only masters give free tech to their vassals, and not vice versa...as it stands Hannibal is embarrassingly behind for someone with 15 cities).

 

[Fish Man]

t175 update.

Spoiler :

Only one person was smart enough to get rifles. The others chose unwisely...and paid the price with their empires, and their dignity. Seriously though, Peter might be a beast at teching but his flavors make him avoid RP for the longest time...I think he got biology and fission before even considering going for rifles.

Now the age of the cavalry is coming to an end. But it matters not...because what is set in motion, cannot be undone. By that I mean I have 40 cities and it's soon going to be time to go full throttle on teching soon. No more conquering - I have all the land I need right here.

Gonna get electricity from Peter and then steam power from Hannibal. From there it's to plastics and building the TGD to power 40 cities in one fell swoop. I might whip factories but after that I'm done with slavery. Will need 3 more GP for the double-GA that I want by the end of the game.

No MoM and no Statue of Liberty for me . Those be in rifled lands. But wonders are more of a luxury at this point. Now, it's straight to space.