Immortal Mansa Help

[sampsa]

@southquote

Spoiler :

Ah, I think I made the same initial movement with settler, NE-NE. It's a small inaccuracy, since it's clear we want mined pigs on our capital BFC. So moving NE-N kept more options open. You know I was beating myself for getting the clam rather than the cow. Plains cow is a way better tile (early on) and doesn't eat 30. I already said my opinion on blocking strategies below deity so you can guess that I strongly favor the wet wheat site over dry rice site, even if the latter has blocking value.

I think your tech path is good. I went archery too, not only for barb defence (Alex counts as a barb for me ) but also to unlock horse archers. Running a 60% slider is a mistake btw, you are losing 1 per turn doing that. Go 0% until you have enough to finish a tech, then go 100%.

The biggest reason why I'd assume my game will skyrocket over yours is that you have 6 invested in granaries while I had over 100 due to chopping. I cannot stress enough how good early chopping and granaries are! I'm too lazy to find the post by Lain that hit the nail on the head, but his general point about worker priorities was something like: 1)improve food 2)chop 3)cottage 4)roads (connect cities, resources). edit: oh, every road in your save is moot! River connects cities and resources.

All in all, your save is not bad at all, but could be improved a bit here and there. I have nearly finished my game already, but don't really want to go ahead of you.

 

[Fish Man]

I played on about as far as Sampsa, stopping at the beginning of T46. There is a little spoiler here since I did research AH already and revealed some horses. I am in a similar place as Sampsa, but city placement differs:

Spoiler T46 :

I settled my first city in the same spot as Sampsa, I initially moved my settler NE so settling 1W as Sampsa suggested would have cost me an extra turn. I settled my second city 1E of where Sampsa settled his third. This puts cow in the first ring, but moves clam to the second. In retrospect, Sampsa's spot was probably better because I end up adding a bunch of desert and losing overlap with Timbuktu for cottaging. Oh well.

I also settled city 3 by T44, but I went North with my third city to block some more land and also help cottage the capital (2 FPs and 1 grassland river tile shared with capital). I was actually thinking of settling a place like where Sampsa put Djenne a bit later since i have the land blocked.

For tech path, I went Agg -> BW -> Pottery -> AH. I am going Hunting -> Archery -> Writing next. I realize most on here do not go for archery (or hunting), but I have needed it on Imm for barbs (and my UU is an archer), and I need hunting for the Ivory and Fur. I have a lot of commerce with the financial + FP so I thought I could put off writing for a slight bit.

City 4 can go where the initial settler was (and Sampsa's Djenne). City 5 will claim the Western FP + horse. City 6 might get the Fish + Crab in the south (hard to see in this screenshot). I lost my initial warrior to a bear so I have not scouted as much as usual...

Holy smokes, I haven’t seen land this good since the NC Peter game where the start was modified to have like a resource every tile. Gotta give a shot at this too...I think I’ll try for sub t250 communism space.

 

[krikav]

Your clam/cow city, I settled that one third, and I simply climbed ontop of the riverside gold for an instant +1 happines. Being financial it also gives +3commerce in the city tile.
That took me away from the coast, and gave the city a slower start though...
Any thoughts on this option?

 

[southquote]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Looking back this morning, I realize a few things I could have improved worker wise. More chops and fewer roads obviously, which I will commence doing when I get back to it. I need to get the rice and cow up ASAP (I just got AH so I could not work the cow right away..perhaps that means I should have settled City 3 down near the cow, not City 2). In terms of roads, I think where I put Djenne would not be automatically connected from the river, but I am not sure. I had the roads pre-built before the city.

Your clam/cow city, I settled that one third, and I simply climbed ontop of the riverside gold for an instant +1 happines. Being financial it also gives +3commerce in the city tile.
That took me away from the coast, and gave the city a slower start though...
Any thoughts on this option?

I am not an expert obviously, but settling on the gold gives you no food resources in inner ring. You do get the FPs, so maybe that is enough?

I will play another set of turns this evening, and then I probably will not be able to play again until Monday...Thanks already for all the help.

 

[sampsa]

Your clam/cow city, I settled that one third, and I simply climbed ontop of the riverside gold for an instant +1 happines. Being financial it also gives +3commerce in the city tile.
That took me away from the coast, and gave the city a slower start though...
Any thoughts on this option?

I think southquote's answer is a good one. Only issue I have with that city is that there are no really strong tiles on 1st ring. -wise it gets +2 from fresh water, but also 5 fp:s compared to 4fp:s if settling 1S, only 1 difference. 1S claims 3 forest more also...

 

[Gumbolt]

Should be a very strong start with a financial leader and flood plains nearby. Very strong UU here against any attack. Skirmishers are lethal! Those first strikes and extra 1 strength makes them uber strong defenders. Just need to monitor Ai who might go war mode and bribe them to war where practical to keep them off your back.

 

[southquote]

I played to T101. Details below:

Spoiler T101 :

I settled cities 4,5,6 as planned. I probably was a little slow settling them due to missing early chops... City 4 was T72, and City 5 T78. I did have a bunch of barbs come in, and I had to whip some skirmishers, which slowed me down. I could probably squeeze in a few more cities, but I would rather focus on building an army (see below).

Tech path: Hunting -> Archery -> Writing -> Fish -> Aeth. I trade Aeth + AH to Isabella for Alphabet. After that I acquired sailing, masonry, mysticism, iron working, and polytheism through trades. Discovered Currency, Math, and Construction. Currently research HBR and then will grab Priesthood and hopefully trade for Monarchy. I will have a GS in 5 turns, and I have not decided between Philo bulb and academy. With all the FPs, I was thinking academy.

Current plan is to take out Elizabeth with Elephants and Catapults. I was never particularly good at early-ish warfare (where early = pre-Cuirs), and I cannot remember a successful pre-Cuir war on Emp or Imm so clearly this is a skill I need. The cons to this choice are: (1) perhaps it is late? I am at 350BC and just starting to build my army and (2) I do not have many forests. I do have a lot of food + happy resources (about to hook up fur and will go for priesthood -> monarchy to hook up wine and switch to HR) so whipping seems possible. I realize I am behind in scouting Elizabeth so I will work in a scout soon and road towards to her. I also set my EPs on her (was late in doing that as well).

Goal is somewhere around 10 elephants and 5 catapults before I attack.

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler Thoughts :

Says it all really. 100% science and your well into 150 beakera a turn.

Phant/pult rush on way. Try to pick someone Greeks don't like. I suspect Greeks will have a decent stack by now.

Looks like England or Greeks as first target.

Alphabet is useful to help bribe Ai here.

 

[sampsa]

Very strong UU here against any attack. Skirmishers are lethal! Those first strikes and extra 1 strength makes them uber strong defenders.

This is an excellent point. With skirmishers you shouldn't have any issues with pre-catapult attacks.

T86

Spoiler :

The idiot in the north went fist-mode just as I started to whip HAs. He declared T81 with a tiny stack consisting mostly of archers. Whipped a skirmisher, which in a hill city deals with the real attackers and HAs shouldn't lose to archers. Monarchy in next turn so I can be even more relentless with the whip.

Yup, free GG-points, some XP and war success. It's can be really good for you if they attack early, without anything that can deal real damage. He bribed the other barbarian on me too, which didn't alter the course of the game at all.

T85 I'm ready to take Corinth next turn with 7HAs, unless there is a pile of archers/spears waiting. You can also see the "economy" in action, I tried to work all the floodplain cottages and 2-pop whip HAs at the same time. With this amount of it worked great. Overflows into warriors to abuse from HR.

Only one archer defender so I took it, caught a worker and extorted rest of alphabet in the peace deal, thanks to huge war success (didn't lose anything!). Set research on feudalism for +2 exp and the ability to capitulate. Elizabeth will be my first real victim, she's always weak and has built some wonders. I'll leave the unit spammers for later.

edit: I have 15 HAs now with many more incoming so an AI that doesn't spam a lot of units has no chance really.

 

[sampsa]

@southquote

Spoiler :

Your game is in good shape. I don't think it's too late at all for an elepult war, especially against an AI like Elizabeth. I don't think you need 10 elephants, maybe even 5 is enough if you have some other troops to mop up (skirmishers are cheap and good). Maybe a bit more than 5 cats though if you need to bombard or suicide a few. Just keep producing units after the initial attack and it'll be fine. You have enough time to scout her still, no worries. I wouldn't put -points on my victims, though. Maybe you can make a war against Alex work, but it's a bit more challenging.

 

[sampsa]

T101

(spoily about Elizabeth's land)

Spoiler :

While I don't have the same nice -rate as southquote, the HA-train is rolling. Declare on Elizabeth T89, capitulate T97. London has some wonders, but I can't really use Mids, since I've whipped so much representation happiness isn't good enough and I need to stick to HR for now at least.

Making use of those -points though, will start a golden age I think no matter what type of GP I get. Also whipping HAs in every city. Pro tip: don't waste your time on barracks (or stables), when the train is already rolling. I do have +2 xp from vassalage, but even without I'd never build barracks. I do have the ones I built before the initial attack, of course. Oh, also the mint in London was captured.

2nd city in action, with a huge -surplus it's getting whipped every 3rd turn and still growing. I don't think even a work boat is worth it (lighthouse definitely not). The faster I produce more HAs the faster I win.

20 HAs still alive, still at war with Shaka but there seems to be no progress even after I bribed Alex on him (mostly for fun). Declared on Willem this turn and assuming the war will be swift. Hmm, just noticed captured buildings aren't shown in the <F9> statistics screen.

Empire overview:

 

[Gumbolt]

Spoiler Game thoughts so far. :

Looks like a pretty easy map once you have built up a decent science base. You could probably get HA super early here. That or phants.

Case of getting feudalism and rolling over map chain vasseling the AI.

Looking at Sampsa game he might do map on HA alone No AI here will get above 5-6 cities making the map a lot easier as they are all bunched up.

I went phant route for a bit more later war fun. Probably should be beeling feud really.

 

[Fish Man]

By some weird fluke the Oracle still didn't go by 600BC, so I took CS with it. Am 10 turns or less from trebs, at which point everyone dies within 50 turns. However, since this is such a juicy bureau cap, I think I'll play it out instead for a sub-t250 space win.

DOW Lizzy 500BC-ish, cap 1AD. I only brought 4 phants and 3 cats for the initial attack, so had to wait for reinforcements. But she had a walled hilltop city and I wanted it ASAP before she could reinforce it with spears. Also...the warrior guarding London was a real MVP. He performed both York and London city captures by taking out the last weakened defender when I was all out of phants to attack with .

Also...300 bpt by 1AD. Looking at eating up Alex with my veteran troops and incoming medieval units.

 

[Gumbolt]

300bpt by 1ad is crazy! Pends which Ai you attack first as some have really juicy land.

 

[Fish Man]

300bpt by 1ad is crazy! Pends which Ai you attack first as some have really juicy land.

Went for lizzy first since she was not a unitspammer and was dangerously close to feudalism. Alex has like a stack of 30 units but they’re all junk. Bait into open and I’ll be able to crush it easily.

 

[Fish Man]

So I crushed Alex as expected. 4 trebuchets against city == entire army dead, basically. While I was duking it out with him, I discovered to my surprise that Willem was teching everything except for civil service, and didn't have a stack. So despite fighting medieval units, which would normally be a slog, I capped him quite easily as well, because he had like 2 longbows and an axe every city. Now it's almost 1100AD but I have nearly 1000bpt. Once the newly captured cities get workshopped they'll each be easily providing 50 hammers, and that's before power. As soon as I get backwards America out of the way (the poor dude doesn't even have longbows) I'll stop the warring and focus on developing my hammer economy.

I've been debating which is better to take first: AL or electricity. Both have marginal benefits in and of themselves, though the sooner I get factories up even without power, the better.

After those things out of the way: plastics -> rocketry -> superconductors -> fusion -> genetics -> composites.

 

[Fish Man]

t263 science win. An early win date, to be sure, but a disappointing one. Guess the start was good, but the rest of the land not so much, and especially the neighbors (Alex with his 30-unit megastack was a pain, at least we know now why the Greek economy is in shambles).

I declared on Shaka the turn before winning, as revenge for the border pressures he had been inflicting on me throughout the entire game. And also because he's Shaka.

Staying a hair's width beneath the dom limit was probably the most stress-inducing part of this whole thing, tbh. Several times I considered giving cities back, but as borders solidified it seemed that I would barely be lower than the limit. By the time I reached plastics looking at the date I knew sub-250 finish wasn't possible. Oh well.

Running a 24-turn quad golden age with the 10 GP I had accrued for this purpose was fun. Wish I had MoM though; Izzy built it before me. Guess I shouldn't complain since I got 600BC Oracle while Izzy had marble, which before this game I would've probably considered an impossibility.

 

[southquote]

Wow nice game going Sampsa!

Spoiler :

Really handled Alex well. I have never used horse archers. Perhaps i should give them a try in another game. I appreciate you playing through for comparison. It is quite interesting to see some of the decisions--early chops, prioritizing granaries, not building the city in the south, going HAs, early feud, etc.--paid off well.

t263 science win. An early win date, to be sure, but a disappointing one. Guess the start was good, but the rest of the land not so much, and especially the neighbors (Alex with his 30-unit megastack was a pain, at least we know now why the Greek economy is in shambles).

Nice. By science win, you mean space?

I played on to T134. Still in good shape, but plodding a bit.

Spoiler T134 :

General overview: got HBR, Priesthood, Monarchy, built a stack and went for Elizabeth. That war is going pretty well (she is down to two cities). Alex declared on me T128, and put a big stack near Gao, but I was able to whip a bunch of elephants and skirmishers to fend off the attack. I got worried when he DOWed because most of my army was in the East near the English so I bribed in Isabella and Shaka on Alex. In the end, I think that was a bad move because Alex's stack had relatively weak units. Moreover, I mistakenly bribed Shaka to cut off trade relationships (rather than DOW) so I needed a second bribe to get him in on Alex. Meanwhile, right before the Isabella bribe, she asked me for a tech and I gave it to her. Doing all this bribing and giving away techs cost me most of my tech lead. In fact, Shaka beat me to Music by one turn which was annoying.

In any case, after Monarchy, I went CoL, Civil Service, Music (I think I researched Poly, although might have been a trade). I traded for Literature and Monotheism. I settled my GS for an Academy, and i will get another GS in two turns. London had the Parthenon (as well as Oracle and Stonehenge) which is a nice bonus.

I just got feudalism from Isabella. I could vassal Elizabeth now, but I am at the doorsteps of her last two cities so I think I will take them. I believe I can take some cities from Alex soon; the plan would be to vassal him. Dutch would be next.

In terms of trades, I have not had much opportunity to trade for resources and with DoW from Alex lost my trade routes to Shaka and Isabella.

 

[Gumbolt]

@ South

Main advantage of fued early is if your playing a map where it's clear you can chain vassel most of the AI.

HA rushes are very powerful especially on a commerce rich map like this.

Spoiler Thoughts :

I would vassel English. Both cities have 5 defenders and you currently lack 5 attackers that can kill units near both cities. You need these units for Alex. You can take a number of his cities with pults and phants. No need to fully bombard.

Greeks have SoZ wonder which can be a pain. You need to clear 4-5 of these Greek cities as they are stopping a lot of useful trade routes here. I tend to prefer one big stack. Once I know I can take the smaller cities I split them up. You do need the right mix of pults and phants. A few HA here can really speed up some of the attacks.

That chariot near Kumbi Saleh is a worry. Has it not attacked before?

Dutch have 4 GPT for trade.
Do you bulb edu next turn or bulb lib instead?

Cuirs and mix of continue the war using capture gold to fuel science.

 

[southquote]

@ South

Main advantage of fued early is if your playing a map where it's clear you can chain vassel most of the AI.

HA rushes are very powerful especially on a commerce rich map like this.

Spoiler Thoughts :

I would vassel English. Both cities have 5 defenders and you currently lack 5 attackers that can kill units near both cities. You need these units for Alex. You can take a number of his cities with pults and phants. No need to fully bombard.

Greeks have SoZ wonder which can be a pain. You need to clear 4-5 of these Greek cities as they are stopping a lot of useful trade routes here. I tend to prefer one big stack. Once I know I can take the smaller cities I split them up. You do need the right mix of pults and phants. A few HA here can really speed up some of the attacks.

That chariot near Kumbi Saleh is a worry. Has it not attacked before?

Dutch have 4 GPT for trade.
Do you bulb edu next turn or bulb lib instead?

Cuirs and mix of continue the war using capture gold to fuel science.

Spoiler :

I had played a few turns right after I posted my T134 message (to about T140), and had already proceeded to wipe out Elizabeth. Perhaps it would have been better to vassal, but taking the last two cities were relatively easy. It did take a few turns (3 elephants taking out 6 weakened defenders over the course of two turns).

I played on to T156 and things seem to be in good shape.

Spoiler T156 :

As mentioned, I finished off Elizabeth. I continued building elephants and catapults in my main cities, and eventually the units in English territory made their way toward the Eastern part of the Greek empire. I took 5 cities off of Alex and then went for peace with the plan to consolidate stacks and take Thebes and Athens, which should be enough for vassal. Eventually, Shaka and Isabella made peace with Alex, allowing Alex to get a decent stack together while my units had become somewhat scattered.

Tech-wise, I did bulb Education. Then I teched Philosophy somehow founding Taoism at the late date of 580AD. My science sort of plummeted due to whipping, SoZ unhappiness, etc. However, I traded for Machinery, Engineering, Compass, and Drama. I teched Liberalism and chose Nationalism. I have a decent science lead for the moment as a result. Plan is to go for Cuirs. In the meantime, I want to grow some of my cities and start building wealth to aid the tech rate. I started whipping mints in my cities as well.

I spawned a Great Prophet in London and used it for a GA to help push me towards Cuirs. Washington is fairly behind in tech currently and seems like easy next target.