Immortal Shadow Game: Cyrus

[antimony]

@Gunboat Diplomat

I agree with @sampsa, the worker steal is a bit risky as it could shift the AI towards more unit buildup. Of course here Gandhi is an extreme outlier on the peaceful side.

Even then, I would still go 2nd worker over barracks. Most of your immortals will fight exactly 1 fight, and Combat I is not necessarily better than, say, having one more immortal in your stack. On the long term the barracks has no value in isolation whereas the worker keeps producing. Bombay and the city you will build on the other side of those floodplains will need a lot of worker turns to cottage.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I take the point about worker > barracks in this instance. I think I'll go that way.

On the matter of a worker steal leading to a build up of military, my experience has differed. If I'm able to strike quickly, I often only face one archer in Bombay, and two more in Delhi (on flat ground). Oddly, the deciding factor in the length of the war seems to be whether or not a forest grows on the tile 1SE of the PH. With no forest there, I can send my entire army to the hill SW of Bombay where it is able to strike either city on the next turn. The AI doesn't seem to whip anything on the first turn of the war, so that speed is enough to seal their fate. However, if a forest has grown on that tile (or if I wait a turn to hunt down a worker that didn't flee to the city), everything slows down, more defenders appear and the cities become harder to take.

Having said all that, I understand that it is very likely extremely situational, and I probably shouldn't extrapolate that to a generally reliable strategy.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Another question I had was about Pasagardae: should I improve the sheep first, or the horse. My knee-jerk reaction is to go food, always, but in this case, does it make sense to get the horses online sooner, and therefore start pumping out immortals, and ultimately eating Gandhi's cities earlier? It doesn't feel like that's enough pay off for delaying pop growth, but I thought I'd ask the question.

 

[sampsa]

I went sheep first.

I understand that you want to be precise, but if you can take Gandhi out before T60 the game is going very very well already. If you experience trouble beating the map you are probably making mistakes later.

 

[Whisker]

Faster is better, but Gandhi normally builds so few units that, you can afford to be a little slower. I expanded to four cities first and declared on turn 63 with a stack of seven immortals, with a backup of four more units being build by second turn of the war. Lost total six immortals to take both Delhi and Bombay, four to Delhi's two archers on flatland and only two to Bombay's three archers on a hill, Well that is RNG for you.
I left Gandhi with one city for espionage purposes, figuring that with no tech trading it would be beneficial to steal some tech from Gandhi. Bombay's Great Wall later produced a great spy, but with only one city Gandhi was teching so slow I really struggled to use all those spy points. I mostly ended up using the steal gold option, that would fuel my research one or two turns for each heist.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

T53 India is gone. Was massively unlucky and many of my 22% attacks didn't even scratch his top defender, so I managed to lose seven(!!) of my ten immortals. The initial attack force was 8 immortals. Captured two workers, no buildings.

Ouch. My attacks went better. Unfortunately, Gandhi was having some kind existential crisis. He only gave me 1 worker which he apparently used to cottage the stone tile. I did pick up a granary in Bombay though, so that's something. I think I'll have to build another worker somewhere though.

Have two granaries and

I'm still four turns away. I assume there was some chopping involved? If not, I've got no idea how you managed to get them up so quickly.

I have three workers building strawberry fields to the capital green river area. It's very important to get those running asap!

I assume you mean cottages? Haven't come across that one before, but I see it.

Also, did you go Masonry -> Fishing? If so, I did it the other way around. Doesn't seem fatal.

Next up is finding a location for the next two cities...

Spoiler T53 + Dot Map :

T53

Dot Map in order of attractiveness to me...

1: will share more FP cottages, but a case could be made for 1a.

2: for immediate silver, and eventually enough food to work them both.

3: seems like a reasonable production city and a decent spot (especially if I'm able to get GLH - which I'm doubtful of given how late I'll be starting it)

4: shares seafood and will work mostly coast. I actually like the spot 1E of the PH too.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Faster is better, but Gandhi normally builds so few units that, you can afford to be a little slower. I expanded to four cities first and declared on turn 63 with a stack of seven immortals, with a backup of four more units being build by second turn of the war. Lost total six immortals to take both Delhi and Bombay, four to Delhi's two archers on flatland and only two to Bombay's three archers on a hill, Well that is RNG for you.
I left Gandhi with one city for espionage purposes, figuring that with no tech trading it would be beneficial to steal some tech from Gandhi. Bombay's Great Wall later produced a great spy, but with only one city Gandhi was teching so slow I really struggled to use all those spy points. I mostly ended up using the steal gold option, that would fuel my research one or two turns for each heist.

Wow. That's a different spin on the game! I'll admit that my espionage game is pretty much non-existent so that strategy would never have occurred to me. It's definitely something to think about for a future game (or attempt) though.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

If you experience trouble beating the map you are probably making mistakes later.

I mean, I have save games from an earlier attempt that made it all the way to 1800AD. If you think it would be more helpful (or less tedious) than running through a whole shadow game, I can provide a few saves/screens from that run for you to dissect.

Edit: Now that I think about it, that might not be especially helpful. In most of my games, the AI seems to pick up GLH well before I ever can (~T73) so maybe that game was an outlier, and not a good example. I'd actually really like to know how to win this game without the GLH if I can.

 

[antimony]

Spoiler Previous comments assuming isolation - not the case :

How early did you get Astronomy on previous attempts?

If you're able to get both GLH and Pyramids by T80 or so you're in really good shape, the trick after is to focus solely on maximizing research and avoid too many distractions from that. Just grow those cottages and avoid the trap of slowing city growth with specialists even with the Pyramids. Once the city is working all its good tiles it can run specialists.

On this map I think you need Calendar early, but no monarchy especially with Pyramids. You can delay Alphabet even if you'll need it for the Astro bulb. After Calendar you could go straight for optics. Either code of laws or great library are defendable detours in a no tech trading game so you boost your science at the cost of delaying astronomy somewhat, but I'm not sure it's worth it. It's worth it probably if it gives you one more great person. Even without tech trading Astro is worth about 7 commerce or so in every coastal city once you meet other AIs.

In terms of cities my priorities would be other side of floodplains (1, not 1a), that marble island for bonus trade routes, and the silver (Unfortunately you can't have both coast and food in the first ring. Food in first ring is more important if you don't have code of laws). I'm not sure about the rest. With Astro you can settle the rest of the coast, but before it cities need to pay for themselves very fast. For example, fish two tiles from coast is too slow without code of laws and again I'm not sure that's a good detour.

In addition to the two great scientists from Astro, you might get a third one in which case it's flexible. I suggest running scientists in your Pyramids city, and even if you get an engineer you can use it for Machinery bulb, but make sure you can get two scientists after that. If you get a third scientist bulbing optics is an option.

I understand the 'fastest Astronomy' strategy is usually for tech trading games, but I think that's also true here even if the payoff is just better trade routes rather than techs.

 

[Whisker]

@antimony
Just a note, this is not an isolation or even semi-isolation, you'll meet most of the AI quite early if you just send out fishing boat and are lucky enough to not get killed by barb boats.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

How early did you get Astronomy on previous attempts?

Most of my games never got that far. I usually manage to tank my economy, especially if I don't pick up GLH. On my best game I picked it up with Liberalism at T151. I'm not entirely sure how much good it did though. I already had trade with everyone via the coast. In fact, if I put my mind to it, I can circumnavigate the globe with a galley by T105 - it's that kind of map. In a future attempt, I didn't even bother with it, and used Liberalism to get Steel for the cannons.

Just a note, this is not an isolation or even semi-isolation, you'll meet most of the AI quite early if you just send out fishing boat and are lucky enough to not get killed by barb boats

Ok. That was my fault. I had a different definition for semi-iso. I have now amended my vocabulary. Thanks for pointing this out. This is obviously going to affect the tech path. In that regard, I've been concentrating on trying to get a solid economy up (early Currency, cottage spam, and a few key wonders) and then going for an attack with a technologically superior force. I tried knights+trebs, but that didn't work out, so I tried rifles and cannons, but that ended poorly as well.

It seems that if I focus on getting the tech advantage, my production is so poor that it takes forever to build the units once I do get there. Obviously, I'm making mistakes, I just can't see them for some reason.

If you're able to get both GLH and Pyramids by T80 or so you're in really good shape

Given my last few attempts, I'm not as sure as I used to be about picking up GLH. I seldom fail Pyramids, but the lighthouse has been going really early (well before T80)

In addition to the two great scientists from Astro

Sorry. You lost me here. How do you get two GS from Astronomy? I'm confused.

 

[sampsa]

I'm still four turns away. I assume there was some chopping involved? If not, I've got no idea how you managed to get them up so quickly.

Judging from your T53 screenshot, you haven't chopped. Chopping early is very very powerful! Those granaries win you what 5-8 per turn so you better chop them asap. It doesn't matter if you grow into unhappiness, it's just -2pt and you can whip em for 30. It's much much better to grow into unhappiness to whip later than forgo always working the best tiles.

Every road inside your core is unnecessary. Things are connected via river and +1 from deer is irrelevant for a long time. Those worker turns could've been used better!

Your dot map

Spoiler :

My thoughts on the order are completely different, though I must admit I didn't spend much time considering things.

I think the best spots are close to the capital. The silver spot is total trash, but ok +1 is something. Then again, what's the rush, Mids is +3 already and monument is +1. My next was your "3" which has 1st ring seafood and strong -tiles to be able to produce a galley. Capital is busy with buildings/wonders. Then my next was your unlabeled NE of capital. Can borrow tiles, has green and 2nd ring fish. Not so urgent city in itself but I liked that it doesn't require a ton of worker turns as they were busy elsewhere (chop GLH, cottage capital area).

Then the next one should be marble I think. It's just great to get at least one better trade route (+2 to every city you have). Delhi's huge surplus I used to whip GLH, Bombay can work those floodplains so those cities are not so urgent IMO. Also, every city I found is close to the capital which can save quite a bit per turn, at least 5 total I think (compared to silver, E of Bombay, S of Delhi).

You can use the marble, too. I think I'll try to get MoM and obviously opens a ton of fail gold opportunities.

T75 screenshot, some talk about wonder dates

Spoiler :

I think Mids was T67 (in capital) or so, just 5-pop whipped GLH in Delhi. It is a bit late so probably could be done a bit better. I did whip a worker from there immediately after revolt is over, since I still lacked sailing. If I could immediately whip lighthouse probably would save 5T or so.

edit: hmm, why didn't I just whip granary??

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Judging from your T53 screenshot, you haven't chopped. Chopping early is very very powerful! Those granaries win you what 5-8 per turn so you better chop them asap. It doesn't matter if you grow into unhappiness, it's just -2pt and you can whip em for 30. It's much much better to grow into unhappiness to whip later than forgo always working the best tiles.

Ok. That's a bit of a paradigm shift for me. I normally prioritise avoiding growing into unhappiness at all costs. Thanks for that.

Every road inside your core is unnecessary. Things are connected via river and +1 from deer is irrelevant for a long time. Those worker turns could've been used better!

Usually, the roads along the river get done before I have any useful techs and allow me to settle my second city on the same turn the settler was built. I can't remember if that was the case here, but I also use them to get my immortals into position quickly. I agree that the latter isn't really worth it, and the deer road could definitely have waited.

My thoughts on the order are completely different, though I must admit I didn't spend much time considering things.

I think the best spots are close to the capital. The silver spot is total trash, but ok +1 is something. Then again, what's the rush, Mids is +3 already and monument is +1. My next was your "3" which has 1st ring seafood and strong -tiles to be able to produce a galley. Capital is busy with buildings/wonders. Then my next was your unlabeled NE of capital. Can borrow tiles, has green and 2nd ring fish. Not so urgent city in itself but I liked that it doesn't require a ton of worker turns as they were busy elsewhere (chop GLH, cottage capital area).

Then the next one should be marble I think. It's just great to get at least one better trade route (+2 to every city you have). Delhi's huge surplus I used to whip GLH, Bombay can work those floodplains so those cities are not so urgent IMO. Also, every city I found is close to the capital which can save quite a bit per turn, at least 5 total I think (compared to silver, E of Bombay, S of Delhi).

You can use the marble, too. I think I'll try to get MoM and obviously opens a ton of fail gold opportunities.

Thanks. I appreciate your explanations. I'll incorporate that.
Also, I like the idea of the Mausoleum. Between all the excess food and possibly building the NE there, Delhi has the potential to churn out a few great people. And long term, I've got my sights on the Taj.

I think Mids was T67 (in capital) or so, just 5-pop whipped GLH in Delhi. It is a bit late so probably could be done a bit better. I did whip a worker from there immediately after revolt is over, since I still lacked sailing. If I could immediately whip lighthouse probably would save 5T or so.

This is where it starts to look like sorcery to me. According to your T53 screenshot, Delhi will come out of anarchy on T55. Then you have to build a monument and wait 10 turns for a border pop. Wait. No you don't. Gandhi managed to get a religion in your game. He didn't in mine. That makes a huge difference. You're working those seafood tiles on T57. Even if I whip a monument, it's T64 before Delhi starts growing seriously. If I use that time to chop out a lighthouse, the city has no forests and low pop when it starts building the GLH late.

Hmmmm... This will require more thought. It seems the rng has more control over this than I previously thought.

 

[antimony]

Sorry about mistakenly assuming isolation, I put my previous comments in a spoiler above. In any case, I agree with @sampsa's suggestions for city spots, skip silver, and you can delay E of Bombay, even though I think it's a good spot, I see the maintenance argument.

Spoiler About wonders :

No isolation means GLH is even better here and I agree it can go faster than Pyramids. This post helps for statistics on the dates: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonderdates.656787/ .

Personally I usually research Sailing before Masonry, 2-whip a lighthouse with overflow into the GLH right on time for Masonry. But sampsa researched Masonry first and it seems to work as well.

Focusing on commerce makes sense, you can whip the few buildings you need (Granary, some libraries and lighthouses) especially with so much happiness.

Spoiler Tech path choices :

The problem with Knights on Immortal and Deity is that they get countered hard by Engineering and most AIs especially the militaristic ones go for that tech fairly early. Since you have so much land to improve first, there is no reason to not wait for gunpowder units, likely Cuirassiers or Cannons.

Points for Cuirassiers: Tech path synergizes well with marble wonders like Great Library and Taj Mahal, easy to use Great Scientists for key techs on the way to Liberalism->Military Tradition.

Points against Cuirassiers: Don't shine as much on water maps. Will usually take more losses than with siege over time. You may need a detour to metal casting for triremes to protect your galleys.

Points for Cannons-Grenadiers: Longer window of opportunity which might help since water slows down conquest, potential for amphibious grenadiers with CHA.

Points against Cannons: Doesn't synergize well with great scientists and marble wonders. You can use 2 great scientists for Chemistry and if you get an Engineer you can bulb Engineering or Machinery as well. (You can also build an academy or start a golden age if you have great people to spare.)

Liberalism -> Steel is not a good idea without tech trading I think, because then you can't bulb Chemistry so you're cancelling a lot of your beaker gains. With tech trading you can trade Philo and Education, etc. for other techs on the path to Engineering, so it's a better option then.

On the short term Currency is always a priority I think (maybe just pass on Alphabet given no tech trading), then Calendar (MoM like @sampsa said) and maybe Code of Laws. Then if you're going for Cuirs you can lightbulb Philo and aim to win the Great Artist for Music. If you're going for Cannons I'm not sure the top of the tech tree is worth the detour, maybe The Great Library but not Philo, Music or Nationalism.

 

[sampsa]

This is where it starts to look like sorcery to me. According to your T53 screenshot, Delhi will come out of anarchy on T55. Then you have to build a monument and wait 10 turns for a border pop. Wait. No you don't. Gandhi managed to get a religion in your game. He didn't in mine. That makes a huge difference. You're working those seafood tiles on T57. Even if I whip a monument, it's T64 before Delhi starts growing seriously. If I use that time to chop out a lighthouse, the city has no forests and low pop when it starts building the GLH late.

Hmmmm... This will require more thought. It seems the rng has more control over this than I previously thought.

Yes, I both got religion and a size 6 Delhi, very very lucky.

Maybe without religion you need to go GLH in capital which is annoying, because the lighthouse is useless.

 

[antimony]

For the GLH if Delhi doesn't have a religion: You have 5 hammers, chop forest over green hill (then mine) and you get a monument two turns after revolt. Then after the border pops 10 turns later you have 5 more chops (100 production, hopefully all pre-chopped) and can work two mines, combined with the whip overflow from the lighthouse you can probably get GLH before T70 still.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah, I think it's possible. Takes quite a bit of worker turns though and you need to go myst earlier (I didnt'). But yeah looking at it I did it very inefficiently and still T75.

 

[sampsa]

T90

Spoiler :

Upon discovering that there is pre-astro contact, the strategy obviously changes as now astro is close to useless. After calendar I went medi-ph-CoL and will bulb philo with the soon coming GS. Next is from Delhi which will launch a golden age ~T105 if the MoM is done by then. Two workers getting shipped to the marble and I might ship two more as it's kinda urgent. Have both calendar s improved. After getting out the 1st GS Pasa has a new task - to spread my main religion.

Have room for 4 more cities on my island and just whipped a galley in Bombay to ship two immortals to try to take out the barb city blocking my trade routes. I think cuirs is the easiest win but might go for drafted rifles for fun. Pretty sure I can win music for 2nd golden age, then there is Taj golden age and all these with MoM mean the -potential is huge.

This map has massive potential and it's one of the easiest immortal games I've ever experienced.

T103

Spoiler :

Got the barb city a bit luckily as Petey was swording it from the other side. That +2 especially is very welcome. Founded Taj spot and the -sharer south of Delhi. Golden age when MoM in (will chop deer forest I think if it wins 2T). Now going towards music. Some and via trade but no . Maybe I should gift Saladin some to get OB. Oh I got some fail gold from Moai and got currency.

 

[SittinDown]

coming in late, but around the turn 50-60 area, i much preferred how Sampsa settled his post-conquest cities better.

it seems like you might learn a lot from that part. working power-tiles near the capital is often much better than grabbing marginal land.

 

[sampsa]

T115 (1AD)

Spoiler :

Could break 500 if I built research , but of course it's powered by the golden age. Cap is size 13 getting out the now before it's overtaken by Delhi for good. Got the cheap but overrated GLib in Delhi, which is about to reach max size (for now) next turn.

I guess I should check if I have iron before committing to cuirs. I think I'll be in caste+paci until cuirs, I mean barracks is the only building I need from now on. Can get some fail gold from NE and will chop to fail HE in places with trees left.

The save is BUFFY.