Immortal Shadow Game: Cyrus

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. I'll wind it back to T53 (my last screenshot) and try to incorporate all that. I'll have to physically win the GLH from this position before my stubborn brain will believe it's even possible at this point.

While I'm attempting that, I just want to clarify what's going on with Sardis. I never would have thought to put a city there. How are you planning to get Taj? Chops? Is that the point of the location, or is there some long term viability that I'm not seeing? (because long term, it ruins two coastal sites)

Another question: Is GLH a deal-breaker? If the AI gets it at an impossible time (say T62, like it has in the past), do I wind back and try again, or do I try to push through on this map without the Lighthouse?

 

[sampsa]

I'll have to physically win the GLH from this position before my stubborn brain will believe it's even possible at this point.

Another question: Is GLH a deal-breaker? If the AI gets it at an impossible time (say T62, like it has in the past), do I wind back and try again, or do I try to push through on this map without the Lighthouse?

Yes, GLH is extremely strong on this map, since you have pre-astro intercontinental trade routes to AI. Almost an instawin button. Of course you can also win without it.

I just want to clarify what's going on with Sardis.

Yes, the point of Sardis is to chop Taj there. I count 10 chops so that's 600 already and there still is a possibility of forest spread.

(because long term, it ruins two coastal sites)

I've now settled all the cities I plan to settle.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

The save is BUFFY.

Ok, well that was an hour of my life trying to install and get that to work, but totally worth it! Looking back through the event log is enlightening! Many thanks.

I notice that you got a Great Merchant several turns back. I assume that's how you got the Golden Age. My question is, would you still have fired up a GA even if it was a scientist, or a Prophet (I ask because sometimes getting Stonehenge makes sense, and that tends to produce one)? Would an Academy in the capital, or a Shrine in Delhi be better than the GA? Or, more importantly, how do you make that assessment?

Do you try to calculate the benefit to output in each city of the GA, vs the beaker/commerce benefit of the building; or is it more a gut feeling? Or are both playable in most situations? I'm trying to understand how to make that decision on my own in the future. (If this has been broken down adequately elsewhere, just let me know - I don't want you to waste time rehashing something that has already been covered extensively)

 

[sampsa]

I notice that you got a Great Merchant several turns back. I assume that's how you got the Golden Age. My question is, would you still have fired up a GA even if it was a scientist, or a Prophet (I ask because sometimes getting Stonehenge makes sense, and that tends to produce one)? Would an Academy in the capital, or a Shrine in Delhi be better than the GA? Or, more importantly, how do you make that assessment?

Yes, started golden age with the GM. I would've started it no matter what type of spawned. I briefly considered getting an academy with the 1st GS (bulbed philo), but I think in general in cuir games it's not worth it, probably even with "no tech trading" turned on.

A shrine is close to never worth it, it's a few pennies per turn while to me a well planned MoM-powered (first) golden age is worth at least 5000 mostly due to the massive amount s it produces. I also think Stonehenge is close to never a good build.

Do you try to calculate the benefit to output in each city of the GA, vs the beaker/commerce benefit of the building; or is it more a gut feeling? Or are both playable in most situations? I'm trying to understand how to make that decision on my own in the future. (If this has been broken down adequately elsewhere, just let me know - I don't want you to waste time rehashing something that has already been covered extensively)

I'm not sure if I understand what exactly you mean, especially the "are both playable in most situations?"-part. Both of what?

I mostly go by gut feeling and experience. I have done some spreadsheets in the past and that's one part where that experience comes from.

 

[sampsa]

T132

Spoiler :

Both Taj and lib (mil trad) this turn. Have gunpowder+HBR too, so all I need is to connect iron. I have two GM walking towards Thebes (ToA city) so will get ~3500 gold soon for upgrades. I think I've built too many stables, barracks are good enough. Can of course go feud or theo later, too.

Will get feudalism next to be able to accept capitulation, then towards astro perhaps? Probably won't need more techs beyond that. 1300AD finish?

HE in capital (will get some fail gold).

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

For the GLH if Delhi doesn't have a religion: You have 5 hammers, chop forest over green hill (then mine) and you get a monument two turns after revolt. Then after the border pops 10 turns later you have 5 more chops (100 production, hopefully all pre-chopped) and can work two mines, combined with the whip overflow from the lighthouse you can probably get GLH before T70 still.

If I pull out all the stops to do all of that, the best I can manage is T72 for GLH and T74 for the Mids. But I think we're getting closer to finding my problem, because between there and T90, everything falls apart. Compared to Sampsa's T90 position, I am 2 cities and several techs behind. In order to improve the land, I had to build 4 additional workers, which left no time for settlers (or pop to whip them). And he has still managed to improve more land than me.

T90
This map has massive potential and it's one of the easiest immortal games I've ever experienced.

When we're done with this, I've got a Suryavarman Map that's even easier that I still can't beat on my own.

 

[sampsa]

Compared to Sampsa's T90 position, I am 2 cities and several techs behind. In order to improve the land, I had to build 4 additional workers, which left no time for settlers (or pop to whip them). And he has still managed to improve more land than me.

Chopping early snowballs, you just get things done faster. You are whipping all your settlers/workers post-granary, right? Not sure why I had the pop to whip. Improve food asap, get granary asap, in general don't build mines post-granary.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Chopping early snowballs, you just get things done faster. You are whipping all your settlers/workers post-granary, right? Not sure why I had the pop to whip. Improve food asap, get granary asap, in general don't build mines post-granary.

My brain is screaming at me that this won't work. If I wait until after granaries, I'll be working too many unimproved tiles to try to build them, which takes forever to even get enough hammers or pop to whip in some places. And while I'm doing all that, I'm not growing cottages, so my tech is falling behind. It seems like I'm doing snowballs in reverse - I'm making small or early errors, that add up to an unwinnable position after a while.

I'll wind it back and try it that way. I really hope it works.

 

[sampsa]

I worded it poorly. I don't mean that ALL your settlers/workers need to be whipped, but that your settlers/workers should not be slow built after you have invested in a granary. Sorry for the confusion.

I switched to slavery only after attack, so workers/settlers so far were slow built with the help of chops.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I worded it poorly. I don't mean that ALL your settlers/workers need to be whipped, but that your settlers/workers should not be slow built after you have invested in a granary. Sorry for the confusion.

I switched to slavery only after attack, so workers/settlers so far were slow built with the help of chops.

No dramas. I tried again, and I think I did better than last time, but by T115 I was still 2 cities and 75 /turn (even with a golden age) behind your position. In all my attempts at this map, this is the only time that no barb city spawned between me an Peter, so I couldn't capture it.

I'm in two minds about whether to push on, or wind it back to T75 ('Mids) again.

Spoiler Frustrated vent - probably best to ignore it :

To be honest, I'm pretty embarrassed by my continued ineptitude at this game. As much as I acknowledge that I desperately need help, I also feel like I'm wasting everyone's time, and I'm sorry about that. You've been more than generous.

I'll probably just scream into the void, shake it off, and have another go, because for some reason I just can't quit. It's still infuriating though.

 

[sampsa]

There is also some variance, though 75pt sounds a lot. Are your cities significantly smaller than mine? If yes, why? Did you found them later or did you whip more buildings?

Honestly if you are making ~400pt at 1AD the game is technically won, so perhaps there is no reason to be a perfectionist.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

There is also some variance, though 75pt sounds a lot. Are your cities significantly smaller than mine? If yes, why? Did you found them later or did you whip more buildings?

I don't know that they're a lot smaller, but there are certainly fewer of them. Also, I was wrong, it's more than 75bpt down. I'm only generating 382 during a golden age. So, yeah. Time to reload and try again.

Honestly if you are making ~400pt at 1AD the game is technically won, so perhaps there is no reason to be a perfectionist.

I think you underestimate my ability to completely botch a winning position. *sigh*

 

[sampsa]

Just for perspective, most players are dreaming of ever making 382 1AD.

 

[antimony]

Your GLH and Mids dates are good, my T70 suggestion was an estimate, I didn't play the save. T62 GLH is extremely early on immortal I think, since you rarely see pre T60 even on deity.

I don't think the religion makes up for most of the difference with sampsa's game, but it's a big impact nonetheless. One more happy + free border pop in Bombay is really strong for those floodplains.

 

[antimony]

My brain is screaming at me that this won't work. If I wait until after granaries, I'll be working too many unimproved tiles to try to build them, which takes forever to even get enough hammers or pop to whip in some places. And while I'm doing all that, I'm not growing cottages, so my tech is falling behind. It seems like I'm doing snowballs in reverse - I'm making small or early errors, that add up to an unwinnable position after a while.

I'll wind it back and try it that way. I really hope it works.

I would be motivated to participate in a slower shadow game on a new map if you'd like.

Otherwise it seems you have the fundamentals down and are just trying to improve on the timing of things? E.g. if you are growing into good tiles before improving them maybe it's time to pause and add a worker; or if you grow into bad tiles then whip while still working good tiles. Once you have cottages sharing them between nearby cities is key. Time the whips so one city picks up the tile the other city drops. Also you want to relieve your capital of worker building duty to work cottages, so look for example for a city with good production resources like cow/horse/copper that won't grow fast anyway, to take on that role. Or just whip them elsewhere where food is good and commerce not as good.

With IMP always whip/chop a settler in priority over a worker (and slow build the worker if needed) since the IMP bonus applies fully to whips and chops. When you have a settler out one (later two) workers are ready to improve the new city right away, etc.

 

[SittinDown]

GD - remember, Sampsa is one of the best players on here, and there's a big gap between being able to win at immortal and being as good as some of the top players. [I am not remotely close to Sampsa in skill, but I can beat immortal]. it's easy to feel dumb compared to the level of play from top players, while being good enough to actually win at Immortal and below.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I would be motivated to participate in a slower shadow game on a new map if you'd like.

Sounds like a plan. I've got a Capac map that I think would work well. I've only played it twice, and was killed by my own overexpansion both times. Plus, it has more normal settings (for me at least) - tech trading on, no huts or events, pangea. If you'd like, I'll tag you in when I start that. Not sure when it will be. Depends how long I can endure this map.

Otherwise it seems you have the fundamentals down and are just trying to improve on the timing of things? E.g. if you are growing into good tiles before improving them maybe it's time to pause and add a worker; or if you grow into bad tiles then whip while still working good tiles.

Sounds about right. Last night I had this idea to S L O W R I G H T D O W N and actually plan the potential for every tile in every city. Not because I think that's a good way to play the game, but because I think I need to fully understand and internalise the timing between growing and improving.

I think I waste a lot of time and potential getting workers to build lots of improvements in cities that grow slowly, while neglecting tiles in cities that grow faster. I need to fight that tendency. I've probably been focusing too much on getting to the happy cap, and ignoring whether those extra pops are doing anything more useful.

I've finally learnt the maths behind whipping, so I'm able (when I remember) to maximise overflow, which is helping. (ie intentionally decrease production for a turn in order to stop a 2-pop whip from devolving into 1-pop). I also figured out (after being shown) that whipping a unit into a wonder can actually have a net positive effect on the build in some cases. So that's another tool in the toolbox.

Once you have cottages sharing them between nearby cities is key. Time the whips so one city picks up the tile the other city drops. Also you want to relieve your capital of worker building duty to work cottages, so look for example for a city with good production resources like cow/horse/copper that won't grow fast anyway, to take on that role. Or just whip them elsewhere where food is good and commerce not as good.

With IMP always whip/chop a settler in priority over a worker (and slow build the worker if needed) since the IMP bonus applies fully to whips and chops. When you have a settler out one (later two) workers are ready to improve the new city right away, etc.

Good info. Thanks.

 

[sampsa]

Sounds about right. Last night I had this idea to S L O W R I G H T D O W N and actually plan the potential for every tile in every city. Not because I think that's a good way to play the game, but because I think I need to fully understand and internalise the timing between growing and improving.

Great! Yes you need to first play a bit slower to understand how to manage your cities. I am probably very good at city management without even realizing what others can struggle with, because it has become so automatic for me.

I think I waste a lot of time and potential getting workers to build lots of improvements in cities that grow slowly, while neglecting tiles in cities that grow faster. I need to fight that tendency. I've probably been focusing too much on getting to the happy cap, and ignoring whether those extra pops are doing anything more useful.

Yes! Optimally you have just enough tiles improved, not 3 extra ones just in case. I used to play even slower than now just to learn how to manage my workers correctly.

I think in general it's good to aim to grow to -cap, but also weak tiles should in most cases be whipped off, unless you have a reason to grow (like before golden age paci+caste switch).

I've finally learnt the maths behind whipping, so I'm able (when I remember) to maximise overflow, which is helping. (ie intentionally decrease production for a turn in order to stop a 2-pop whip from devolving into 1-pop). I also figured out (after being shown) that whipping a unit into a wonder can actually have a net positive effect on the build in some cases. So that's another tool in the toolbox.

However, to me maximizing overflow is very situational. In general, whip immediately when available, because getting stuff sooner is better. Overflow is just that you gain by delaying the build, nothing else. Overflowing to a wonder is a real concept of course.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

In general, whip immediately when available, because getting stuff sooner is better.

I assume there's a caveat about whether or not the city has anything useful to do after the current build. Maybe my tech path needs work, but I sometimes (especially in the early game) end up with cities that have nothing useful to build - barracks in cities with low production, markets, or just units that I don't need yet.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

I think in general it's good to aim to grow to -cap, but also weak tiles should in most cases be whipped off, unless you have a reason to grow (like before golden age paci+caste switch).

I haven't used this strategy before. I assume the point is to use the golden age to pump out great people points? My GP game is especially weak, which is why I tend not to play Philosophical leaders - I just can't use them to their full potential. Yet.