[BTS] Immortal Shadow Game - Stalin

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Spoiler to T42 :

I decided to settle 3N despite the loss of a forest because the early use of the lake tile will help us tech to GLH. Settler #3 is done after a double Work Boat. Would you still settle the Ivory site even though we have no AH? I suppose the floodplain is nice and expanding towards Joao grabs more land. Is it worth delaying the settle of the third city a few turns so that research doesn't tank for GLH, or is the immediate extra production superior?

For techs, I am planning Masonry > AH.

For builds, I am thinking of banking hammers into a Settler so that I can whip for max overflow once GLH is available. Or is growth better? City #2 will work the lake for and whip a worker when available.

What would you do with the worker? Chops for lighthouse/Settler or build a mine for GLH?

 

[sampsa]

I would not be overly concerned about - you almost have the GLH-techs. Yes I would go for the ivory-spot, it's connected for +1, +1 cc, unimproved fp is decent.

With worker probably mine, then probably pre-chop to time it well with 4th city. Looks wp so far!

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Spoiler to T56 :

3rd city was settled on the Ivory and grew on a warrior before starting on a worker. I have 2 workers being built which will bring the total to 4: 1 for each city.

GLH is just in. A forest grew 1W of the Copper, so I skipped the mine in favor of an extra chop. City #4 is settled NW of the Corn as Joao already settled 2S. I suppose this also gets us an extra forest and fewer jungle tiles.

Scouting to the west reveals a Clam/Dry Rice site. I am thinking of settling this next as while the tiles are only 4 food now, they can be improved with irrigation/lighthouse and the city is also coastal for GLH. We will see if anyone beats me there.

I am planning AH next for the Cows, and am thinking of Wheel > Pottery > Writing after that. Would you guys go for peaceful expansion with GLH or war against Joao? I do believe I am boxing him in so I might not have a choice...he has no religion yet.

For builds, I am planning on growing to size 6 on the Mids in the capitol and then whipping a Settler. Is it worth trying to make a serious run at the Mids, or just use it for failgold? We have no stone but are industrious. Only Stonehenge and GLH are built so far, and there appears to be no other Industrious civs so far so perhaps there is a shot. Second and Third cities will whip workers, grow on barracks/warriors, and whip granaries ASAP when they are done.

 

[Jellybug]

here's a good thread containing a small wonder date experiment run by Major Tom: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonderdates.656787/#post-15903600

according to those twenty trials (so, a small sample, but still a decent guideline) on Immortal, 'Mids go median T88, with a standard deviation of 11 turns, so (roughly) 2/3 of the times fall between T77 and T99

I think with whipping overflow and the one chop in the capital, Mids is kinda doable, but kinda rough even assuming 3 maximum overflow whips, 29 * 3 = 87 hammers. Mids cost 500 * (2/3) = about 333.33333 (repeating of course) hammer (and sickles) for Stalin since you are Industrial. Single forest adds 20 so that's 107 hammers accounted for. Now you need to come up with 333.3333 - 107 = 226 hammers in a city that really only wants copper + wheat + cow = 9 hammers (if you elect to swap the wheat back, of course), plus a green hill makes 12 . Working all of those gets you there in 18, but you of course won't be working the full strength cow for at least four turns, won't be working the mine until you're done growing, nor whipping more than once in that time frame given your latent 5 turn timer in Moscow, so all those hammers go poof from the equation. So it's looking more like 30 turns on Mids here. (Heh before I ran the calc, I guessed 35 turns)

According to my calculations (my how I've always wanted to say that), you have about a fifty fifty shot, maybe a little worse, of getting Mids, since you're finishing right around the median time. normally the tradeoff is you miss out on expansion opportunities or army whips... seems like you don't want to be ceding any precious coastal cities to Hannibal here (or even Joao, snaking around west of your southern front), but if you're whipping settlers it seems like you'll still be claiming the land. all that food in the capital makes it worth going for i.m.o, and even fail gold is nice if you can still plop your cities

(for reference, I'm starting to win on Immortal, but only just about, so I'm far from an expert).

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Spoiler to T73 :

City #5 is ready to be settled next turn at the Clam/Rice...if Joao doesn't settle 1N of Clam this turn

AH > Wheel > Pottery > Writing is just in, with Granaries online in the two southern cities. I am thinking to build libraries next here to fight off Joao's culture. He has a border pop in his 3rd city so I am expecting the Corn to get temporarily stolen at my 4th city here any turn now.

6 turns to Pyramids, TGW only went in 1160 BC so wonders appear slow this game. I plan to whip a Settler in St Petersburg (City #2 north) to settle the Fish/Marble site. That would bring the empire to 6 cities, which is probably it for expansion here.

I am currently thinking Elephants for a war...is it too late for that? We don't have much good cottageable land, but Joao has some nice land with double gems and dyes. He also appears to be stuck in the corner. Where would you go from here?

 

[Snowbird]

Well, I think after GLH game should be work in the park unless very gross mistakes happen.

In general, on normal speed games I would advice skipping at least one era between major stuff. so, if you build wonders (GLH, Mids) in ancient era concentrate on growth (both vertical and horizontal) in the next. In that vein soonest attack would be trebs+maces times. If you go for elepult, IMHO, you will have problems with production, which will delay it even further.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Well, I think after GLH game should be work in the park unless very gross mistakes happen.

In general, on normal speed games I would advice skipping at least one era between major stuff. so, if you build wonders (GLH, Mids) in ancient era concentrate on growth (both vertical and horizontal) in the next. In that vein soonest attack would be trebs+maces times. If you go for elepult, IMHO, you will have problems with production, which will delay it even further.

Got it, how would you decide between a Medieval attack vs. waiting for Cuirs?

What would you tech here? If no Construction, I am thinking Aesthetics for trade value (we have marble for Lit > Music path), Metal Casting for Ind Forges.

What would you spend production on for vertical growth? Granary/Forge + build wealth? Stables for future Cuir production?

For Horizontal growth I suppose I can also consider the Pigs/Incense spot 1S of oasis but it is not coastal and might be marginal. We could work some cottages though.

 

[Snowbird]

Tech situation mostly... like what your opposition has, how far Cuirs are (I'd imagine great people production might be a problem - no scientist points so far). I mean wonder chasing is cute but 1000BC no library in cap...yeah. I imagine CS bulb with GM can be manufactured.

GLH is also good with medieval warfare, as trade routes don't suffer that much then the cities are whipped.

Well, Alpha is already available in trade, so Aesthetics definitely. After getting Alpha depends on what AI's have.

Granaries, monuments (I think you loose way too much by not working gold alone) since the religion spread is unlikely, forges if available, lighthouses if seafood present, wealth, research. I'd build these.

I am not sure if 2xfish on the east coast near Jao is available. Maybe settle coastal city for no food gold (it would work gold all the time, but would be profitable).

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Spoiler to T90 :

The pyramids are in. I founded cities #5 and #6 at the Clam/Rice and northern Fish site as planned. Hannibal expanded to the desert gold sites to the west, while Joao has settled the foodless Gold to the east (and ruined one of the Fish in the process). I am planning 1 more city to claim the Pig/Incense near the desert (it will be whipped in Moscow after we grow in 1 turn).

As soon as the library finished in Moscow I ran scientists, but we ended up getting a GE in Moscow rather than a GM. Save for Taj Mahal or maybe Engineering bulb?

We don't have horses, so Cuirs would require trading for horses. Maybe an Engineering attack is better here in that case then?

For techs, I traded Aesthetics for Alphabet with Sury and Alpha for IW with Joao. Joao/Sury have Maths, and Wang Kon has MC. I am considering:

Poly > Lit > Music
Currency > CoL > Philosophy or CS (maybe gets us a religion)
Engineering perhaps, but hope we can trade for Maths/MC rather than self tech

Where would you go from here?

I mean wonder chasing is cute but 1000BC no library in cap...yeah.

Writing wasn't in until T73 due to slow early commerce and the Masonry/Sailing detour but yeah. Libraries are done in the capitol now as well as on my two southern border cities with Joao so hopefully we can catch up on some GS production there.

 

[Snowbird]

For techs, I traded Aesthetics for Alphabet with Sury and Alpha for IW with Joao. Joao/Sury have Maths, and Wang Kon has MC. I am considering:
1.Poly > Lit > Music
2.Currency > CoL > Philosophy or CS (maybe gets us a religion)
3.Engineering perhaps, but hope we can trade for Maths/MC rather than self tech

Well, worker management.... The road being done... shared riverside between southern cities being ignored.. sigh.
I would also prioritize finding remaining AI(or multiple), the one(s) Wangs espionage goes to.
Very unfortunate that you could not trade for Hannibal's fur, Khmers seem to have share amount of tundra so you should check if gets some happy resources for trade.

1. Music is worth only if you can obtain Philosophy in timely manner. IIIRC, GArtist Philo bulb is not available with masonry.
Great Library is cute, but if it is target you need workers starting quarry+road, maybe a mine too. Novgorod could build but it has no real surplus, so best option is the capitol...
2. I would not be sure you get Maths in trade so fast unless someone builds HG. Not sure getting religion is worth anything at this point (free missionary to make Jao heathen maybe). Instead you should open borders with Budhism founder and hope for missionairies.
3. In some games it can be really long time before someone trades MC. At first no AI techs it, then overvalue due to Collosus...

I would probably go Currency, cause it gives immediate bonuses - trade routes, build wealth, smooth tech trades with gold, sell minor techs... Revalue after Currency, but likely Poly>Literature because I would want GScientist points going forward (and I'd hire two dorks in Library next turn).
Alternatively you can try teching MC and trading it for Maths/Currency/CoL whatever else becomes available. With Math/Alpha as prereq I would guess Currency might be the first tech obtainable via trade.

I think choice is about future plans, Currency>LIterature is more play for further stuff (post Lib). MC with stashed GE is more about moving towards trebs/maces/elephants.
While Curency>Lit into Liberalism is a lot of value in theory... Jao has a really nice chunk of land.

 

[AlmightyBureaucrat]

Well, worker management.... The road being done... shared riverside between southern cities being ignored.. sigh.

The shared riverside grassland was only claimed by culture 5 turns ago and I decided to hook up Gold first. Is riverside grassland > Gold? I figured working Gold + rep scientist would be strong though I suppose I could use another worker as I have only 5 now. How many more would you build?

What do you

1. Music is worth only if you can obtain Philosophy in timely manner. IIIRC, GArtist Philo bulb is not available with masonry.
Great Library is cute, but if it is target you need workers starting quarry+road, maybe a mine too. Novgorod could build but it has no real surplus, so best option is the capitol...

What do you normally use a Great Artist for? I have typically used these for Golden Ages. I am getting mixed signals on TGL here, sounds like it's a tossup between this and Engineering attack. Does land quality play into it? I suppose we have decent land, but does lack of Horse make the long play less appealing?

 

[Snowbird]

we have

I keep wondering what does continuous use of "we" refer too... Otherwise I have nothing more to say on the current situation.

 

[Jellybug]

I keep wondering what does continuous use of "we" refer too... Otherwise I have nothing more to say on the current situation.

By Bureaucrat or in general? I see it a lot in blogs or progressive think pieces. Also in academic papers regarding economics or other social policy. I have often wondered the same. Of all the places I have seen this "we," this thread is the most appropriate, seeing as a shadow game is a somewhat cooperative endeavor

 

[Snowbird]

Must be first language and culture influence... every single time I read "we" I get associations with Soviet Union.

 

[Jellybug]

i once heard a funny anecdote about kruschev. his wife is at home and the phone rings. allo, she says? a young woman is on the line, she says is nikita sergeyevich there? who's calling, says kruschev's wife. im an old classmate of his, says the woman on the phone. so kruschev's wife says, hang up the phone, you hussy...my husband never went to school anywhere