Immortal University XIV

[Jet]

175 BC - 1130 AD. I'd appreciate criticism or suggestions.

Spoiler :

Here are the techs, but I'm at war with Monty and Liz refuses to talk.


125 Hannibal declared on HC and the next turn I agreed to join in. Up to 1130 AD Carthage vs. Peru would be the only AI-AI war I saw.
100 Taoism fell to the mystery civ (just a reference for when an AI got Philo)
75 BC Monarchy from Liz for Literature+Math and adopted Hereditary Rule.
75 AD Currency. From this point on I occasionally sold old techs. At this point I planned to bulb to Liberalism, but otherwise had no plan other than my basic continent development plan.
175 Code of Laws. For the moment I decided to stay in Slavery for the production rather than adopt Caste System, and as of 1130 I haven't switched out. My greatest production needs at the time were for the Great Library, Settlers, and National Epic. Looking back, I'm not sure whether it was a good decision. Every city had at least one production tile, and on the whole my production needs were modest. On the other hand, as of 1130 I have more or less kept up in tech; at least, for techs I can use, so I'm not sure what I would have done with the extra great people.
250 Great Library fell to the unknown, isolated wonder whore, who then had in his capital Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse, Oracle, Colossus, Great Library. I had 275/350 hammers. At least I didn't suffer for trading Literature away.
350 Mono from Monty for something. I thought I might go to Paper through Theology, but the trades didn't work out and anyway I wanted Civil Service to go with the Academy and cottages in the capital. This trade wasn't really thought out.
350 founded Verlamion (Crabs). It was a drain, but I was keeping up in tech, didn't expect to go to war soon, and wanted the health, also expecting Harbors at some point. I also figured it could work some cottages for Bibracte, although as of 1130, it has only started to work one cottage, and is still working two farms for production.
425 founded Durnovaria (Clams/Carthage) It was a drain, but I wanted a jumping off point to attack the other continent and thought that if an AI settled there, I might have trouble steak attacking the other continent. I'm not sure that reasoning is sound, though.
375 Philosophy. I decided to wait until CS to revolt to Pacifism.
475 Monty asked me to stop trading with his worst enemy Liz, and I agreed. 40 turns later she still wouldn't talk again, and so when Monty soon declared on me, canceling with Liz ended up noticeably hurting me for lost trade opportunites (tech, resource, route). I'm not sure how I could have forseen that. Monty and Liz were each other's worst enemies and Monty had been in war prep forever. If I had looked more carefully, I wonder if I could inferred that Monty wouldn't declare on Liz because didn't have a route to England, since he was blocked by Peru and didn't have OB with HC.
520 founded Isca (double Clams/Copper). At this point I had given up on a barb city appearing there or enough barbs spawning to get me my level 4. This was to be my Moai + HE city and I just wanted to get the city going.
600 Monty declared on me. His tactics were very odd. Our galleys sparred, and then he landed a Jaguar and 3 Archers, with no Settler, on the empty island between Celtia and Carthage. This is one of the things that delayed the great person in Vienne: I had to whip a couple Galleys and ground units.
640 Civil Service. GP #2: Great Scientist in Tolosa - bulbed Paper. Revolted to Bureaucracy + Pacifism, then Hinduism. I built one Monastery, but luckily I already happened to have Hinduism in all the cities where I wanted to run specialists.
680 Feudalism from Joao for Civil Service + World Map.
740 National Epic in Gergovia. I might have gotten it sooner, but I also built a Dun, Lighthouse, and a couple units there, and kept Scientists hired. I tried to whip overflow into the NE, but I'm not good at that and may not have gotten many hammers from my efforts.
840 Hannibal declared on HC again.
940 GP #3: Great Scientist in Gergovia - bulbed 2nd half of Education.
960 Construction from Hannibal for COL+65.
1030 Compass+half of MC from Hannibal for Philo.
1050 With no attack from Monty and still needing a level 4 unit, I had whipped up a stack of 2 Longbows (Guerilla II) and 2 Gallics (1 Combat II, 1 Medic), and was ferrying them to Carthage and to position on a hill to farm XP. They got to the Aztec border, but then got wiped out.
1120 GP #4: Great Spy in Gergovia.
1130 I'm one turn from Liberalism.

Best thing I can think of to do is:
* make peace with Monty so that I can ship spies and units to Hannibal unmolested.
* take Liberalism now, for Nationalism. An alternative would be to get Chemistry by researching Gunpowder and trading for Machinery and Engineering. Chemistry would be great, but I expect my only trade partners to be Hannibal and Joao, so I'd pay dearly for those tech trades. In theory I could steal one or both of those techs, but I'm not sure I'll have time.
* research Drama, then Gunpowder. Build the Globe, adopt Nationhood, Caste System (mainly for workshop hammers), and Theocracy or Free Religion, and start drafting in the Globe city.
* Other satellite cities build (6 Universities) / Forge / Courthouse / (some Harbors) -> Spies, Cats/Trebs. Meanwhile, lay down Workshops.
* Steal Machinery, Engineering, Guilds.
* Use 2 Galleys to gradually ferry an army to Carthage, then attack Montezuma. This could turn out terrible if Hannibal attacked me, but I think that's unlikely, given where he is with HC.
* I think all of this will be economically expensive, so I don't expect to have any real military or tech advantage during or after the war with Monty. As it is, it will probably be Muskets and Pikes versus Cuirassiers, and Cats and Trebs versus Castles. By the time I'm ready to attack Hannibal I imagine I'll be behind, and by the time I'm done with him I'll probably be very behind. I don't know what I can do about that.

^ I suppose one thing I could do about that is put the Globe Theater in Bibracte rather than a military city. I don't have a very good intuition about the tradeoff (1 Musket per turn versus a 50%-100% larger Bureaucracy capital). I kind of think the +Happy from Nationhood tips it toward Nationalism, though. I suppose I could do a capital Globe without Bureau, but with Nationhood, and do a mass draft to fight Monty, then another to fight Hannibal, with the slider - but then the Globe wouldn't be doing much for me.

 

[Jet]

To 1 AD - Looking for help!

Spoiler :

Agree with almost everything Silverbullet said. I don't think there's such a rush to cottage the capital, using it for production should also be fine, since spamming coastal cities will work for you with the GLH. Not sure I agree with his emphasis on Education/Oxford (for example, why is that better than a Galley/Maceman attack on Hannibal?), but it is reasonable.

 

[Jet]

100 turns (to 375bc):
...
What do you think, is this game won? As long as I don't get sloppy it's looking good I think.

Yeah, I agree.

 

[silverbullet]

Spoiler until turn 134 (475 AD)
I think it looks good (which is when I start making stupid mistakes)
Please feel free to ask questions/critique/ suggest.

Spoiler :

I decided not to try and build the pyramids here because the island is low in happiness resources and my plan is to make the capital a super science bureaucracy city, so I will need a higher happy cap that can only be achieved by Monarchy. I also saw Joao was a neighbour and it will help to please him.

475 BC Currency is discovered, increasing our trade nicely on this map (+3 in every city).

I found Gergovia to grab fish/copper- it's getting urgent because my chariots can't handle barbarian spears that start appearing.

Research priesthood and trade monarchy from Joao for currency. Monarchy is one of the techs that the AI always agrees to trade, even in monopoly situations, so I rarely research it myself (Alphabet is the 2nd tech that is like that). I have no clue why they programmed the AI this way.

I meet HC and Elizabeth and non of them has Aesthetics yet. There is one civ I have not met on the other side of the world, that has grabbed a few wonders, but no Aesthetics wonders yet. I decide to try for the GLib despite having no marble.
I have not yet settled any cities SW of the capital and there are a lot of forests there. I also have a very good tech rate now and I decide to try to aim for the free great artist from Music. If I miss the GLib I will use him for golden age+caste system+pacifism to speed up scientists for liberalism.

225 BC Aesthetics done
200 BC Monarchy to HC for Mathematics. HC adopts Monarchy, his favourite civic and now both him and Joao are my friends.
150 BC Literature is done.

50 AD The Celtic nation is the first to discover Music, and a great artist is born in Bibracte.
75 AD Meditation (done in 1 turn)->start CoL
150 AD Trade Music for Feudalism from Elizabeth. It will speed up civil service.

175 AD CoL done-> start Civil Service
200 AD with some intense chopping, the GLib is built in Bibracte. We don't have marble, but we built a magnificent library from wood! Start NE.

225 AD Joao founds Taoism before I had a chance to bulb philosophy. I will probably skip it now.

300 AD settle Camulodunum to grab crabs+iron. It's not a great location, but I need the extra health in the capital.
Since I was too slow to settle my island and left too much fog of war, I start having a big problem with barb galleys. I actually have to build galleys now for naval defence because the AI has not researched metal casting yet. I need to build some galleys before I can settle the double clam +copper spot (plan for HE). On the positive side the barbarian activity has made it easy to unlock the HE, and the barbs have not settled any city on my island.

325 AD I manage to trade compass and Calendar with Han and HC.

425 AD Civil service is done. Buddhism finally spreads to us, so I research Monotheism next to get some benefit after we convert.
I am thinking of maybe using the GA now to save 2 turns of anarchy (civil service+org religion, and convet to budhism) but I am not sure it's worth it.

425 Verlamion founded on double clam+copper spot.

450 AD Monotheism in, Drama next. This is something I usually forget to do, but thanks to these threads I got a great advice from Dirk- start working on globe before 500 AD to be ready for a war around 1000 AD. I will probably take a little longer on this map because my 2 last cities are very new and small, but it's not too bad because the AIs are not that fast in this game (and everyone hates Monty and he will probably stay backwards for a long time - I just need to make sure he doesn't lose his wars and bribe someone for peace if I am afraid he will capitulate).

Tech Status:


Diplomacy:


City overview:

The capital already drives most of the research, and it will get much better after revolting to bureaucracy. Once NE is done I will run 2 scientists instead of 2 plain hill mines. I will spend some effort to spread religions into this city for monasteries. 10% increase in this city will be meaningful after bureaucracy.



Tolosa will generate a GS next turn, which I will keep for education. It will start working on theatre and focus toward globe.


Vienne is a hybrid commerce/production city. When I whip here I try to make sure the cottages are still being worked after whipping, so I usually try to keep it above size 5. I will add another cottage on the forested riverside grassland


And the 3 relatively newer and smaller cities - I will need to get infrastructure up and read quickly here.I am planning to chain irrigate the grassland tiles for whipping. Theatres are top priority for early globe, and later granary/library and growing large enough to whip/chop universities.

 

[silverbullet]

Spoiler :

Agree with almost everything Silverbullet said. I don't think there's such a rush to cottage the capital, using it for production should also be fine, since spamming coastal cities will work for you with the GLH. Not sure I agree with his emphasis on Education/Oxford (for example, why is that better than a Galley/Maceman attack on Hannibal?), but it is reasonable.

@Jet - thanks for initiating this discussion, this is why I like playing a game in a common thread.
Anyone who played to 1 AD can feel free to join this discussion.

Spoiler :

Let me explain why I think cottaging the capital is optimal.

GLH provides nice research but once you get to renaissance you need mature cottages to drive your modern research. On this map there aren't a lot of reasonable spots for commerce except for the capital, and the synergy of bureaucracy+stone makes early oxford very attractive. Cottages take 70 turns to mature (or 30 turns to get to villages where you start getting printing press boost), so the earlier the better.

As for your suggested alternative of macemen and galleys:
If you can get macemen while the AI has archers (which is hard to do), I can see the benefit of medieval war, but I don't think it's efficient against longbows. You will need at least engineering to run an efficient war against longbows, and by the time the war is over it will be hard to recover.
Colonial maintenance will also start kicking in once you capture more than 2 cities on another landmass, making a strong commerce capital even more important.

I think a super science capital will enable you to maintain tech lead or at least parity during a renaissance war, which will be much quicker, you will capture mature cities with mature cottages, wonders, shrines, etc.

I would love to see a sample game here that would prove me wrong, but I don't think medieval war is optimal on this map. On most maps I rarely see any map where it's optimal on Immortal (and even more so on deity).

 

[Dirk1302]

Short update until 500 AD mainly about capital

Spoiler :

Have played it until 500 Ad yesterday, i agree with silverbullet, this capital has everything to make it a super science city.

- It has rivers and lots of grass
- It has good production so a Snaaty style approach (grow the cap to max churning out workers/settlers nonstop, no whipping) makes a lot of sense here.
-We're charismatic so we can work 7 tiles early
- There are good sites nearby, neighbour cities can also work cottages, the capital 'll get them later.
- Oxford early is a priority in this case since it has enormous effect, after Oxford this city'll churn > 400 bpt. we have stone making it even more attractive
- We're semi isolated so we don't need to rush as much though it would be a shame not to settle the whole island asap so a second settler pump is needed.(The great city near deer/sheep/fish did this very well).

500 AD it worked out ok for me, i've good research already due to capital (~150 bpt with a small loss, 7 cities, slider at 70%). In hindsight i should have settled the double clam city earlier, i might have had a chance to build a good gp farm there. On the other hand it would have been expensive and i wouldn't have unlocked HE in that case.As it is i'm going directly for globe there after building a university and forget about gpp this game as i also don't have a religion that i can run safely.I'll win lib race anyway and i'll take PP this time for an immediate boost. I expect to have around 700 bpt average between 1000 and 1500 ad so researching the military key techs shouldn't be a problem.

I'll get up some saves and maybe screen shots later, may be a more detailed report if i have some time.

 

[Gliese 581]

170 turns (to 1100 AD):

Spoiler :

So I said this game was in the bag unless I played sloppy. Well I might have spoken to soon on that, and I have indeed been playing a bit carelessly. This should however be cause for much rejoicing as it keeps things interesting. Unfortunately I haven't been taking many notes so the details will be sketchy to say the least.

Let's start with a screenshot of where I started the 2nd round.



As you can see from this screenshot I've already been a bit sloppy. Non-riverside cottage, farm on shared tile with bur capital, ignored flood plains? Also note that the marked southwestern city-spot is in a suboptimal place, I even cleared the forest there so as not to waste it. After looking through some other games here I realized the error and placed the city 1N.

I expanded a bit more albeit slowly and built TGL in the capital.



Hinduism had spread and I adopted it before meeting HC (although technically I knew of his existance due to other games). This was however later vindicated as Hannibal built the AP.

I was beaten to Philosophy by Hannibal and was a bit leery of trading techs on the liberalism path to him. I decided to get UoS to complement the AP bonuses (also thinking about getting The SM). Diplomacy-wise I met up with the other 2 civs on the continent. Hannibal started war with HC and Monty with Joao. Both lasted a short time however. Then Monty started war with HC but it was quickly stopped by AP vote. Elizabeth became a vassal of Joao (after war with HC I think).



Unfortunately toward the end of the set, Monty attacked Hannibal a 2nd time. It was also stopped quickly by AP vote but it moved them from pleased with each other down to cautious, weakening my triangle dipomacy.

I didn't build the NE and didn't adopt philosophy until quite late and only got 3 gps before Liberalism. Two of them were great merchants that I settled in the capital (though the eastern fish/sheep/deer city would have been a better spot for it). The third a GS that built an academy in the capital. This means I didn't bulb a single gp to get Liberalism in this game but I still made it. More evidence of sloppy play, I wasn't sure that was possible given our suboptimal land.
Unfortunately I had to trade Education for some techs and gold to Monty to cut research time on lib with a turn since Hannibal also had all the preqs and might be gunning for it. This raised the average tech level a bit.





I'm going to pick PP here I think. Hannibal already has Nationalism and has built the Taj Mahal so I can hopefully trade for Nationalism instead. I've decided to try to win this game without any further bloodshed rather than buildup for a rennaisance war (that I'm in a poor position to conduct anyhow with no globe city ready and a blazingly fast tech level all around). It should prove to be a challenge.
With no happiness resources whatsoever and only trading for sugar from Hannibal I'm really glad that we have the charismatic trait. Who says charismatic is not an economic trait? Nonsense. In any case I think I need to abandon representation in favour of monarchy fairly soon now that I've won the Liberailsm race so my cities can grow beyond size 14/13. I think SOL and emancipation should be high priorities if I'm to turtle to a win (probably space given the diplomatic situation, though I really want more OBs to take advantage of the GLH fully).



Joao in commanding lead in land-size:



I'm pondering where to put Wall Street, gp farm southeast or capital? Also I'm not sure if the AP & wonder bonuses still apply to monasteries after Sci Meth, do they?

 

[Dirk1302]

Better late than never,
Save to 520 AD

Spoiler :

Looking back i should have settled more cities already, this would have affected other things like emphasis on cottage growth though. Position here should be ok btw.

 

[silverbullet]

Dirk:

Spoiler :

Why more cities? This land is not that great (not a lot of food) and keeping the maintenance down enables a high slider for maximum output of the super science city.
In my game I settled only 6 cities on the island, and my mistake was that I hadn't fogbusted properly the coast - fighting with barbarian ships delayed my growth and therefore late universities and late Oxford (around 1200 AD).

 

[silverbullet]

Spoiler Until 1010 AD (Turn 161)

Spoiler :

Tech is going well, but I had wasted too much time fighting barbarian galleys with no metal casting. This made my 2 newest cities stay small for quite some time and therefore delayed oxford. My cities are still not ready to build universities. Still research is good in the capital. With national epic and great library and cottages on riverside tiles it drives most of the research AND GPP in the empire:


I used my GS to bulb the following:
1 bulb for education (partial)
1 for liberalism (partial).
1 for printing press (partial).

Washington came from across the ocean and presents a nice trading opportunity. I trade philosophy+paper+music to him for engineering and optics.
Tech status after the trade:


I will try to get steel from liberalism, but if elizabeth is to fast, I will pick Astronomy instead. Even though galleys can reach the other continent, Galleons and Frigates will do a much better job and observatory in the capital will help maintain a tech lead.

I am planning to stay in bureaucracy here during the war. I will use slavery to whip an army. I don't have any cottages on non-riverside tiles, so most cities work farms/mines and can join the whip festival.

Montezuma is obviously my first target. Almost everyone hates him. He picked a war with Han and later a war with Joao (ongoing). After that I will take Han and then decide on either HC or Joao.

My next GS will be due in 16 turns. I will use it for a golden age to get the last push before the war, and convert to budhism and revolt with no anarchy.

 

[Dirk1302]

@silverbullet

Spoiler :

I have slider at 70%, the land is ok. few resources except seafood but lots of grassland. After currency there's almost no loss due to trade routes (well there is a loss of course with the very productive capital having to lower the slider 10% hurts but i think the profit from having 10 cities instead of 7 is greater). Without food resources it costs at least 40 turns to get new cities productive so the earlier they're founded the earlier they show profit, after communism these cities produce some 30-50 bpt + some useful production , more later on without hurting maintenance too much much .

Especially the double clam city should have been founded earlier, it could have been useful for gpp, i couldn't use the deer city since it spits out settlers/workers. OTH the double clam city would have hurt a lot pre 1 AD so i'm not totally sure afterall.

 

[Waraddict]

Hi,

I play a lot with bodicea of the celts and came to like the celt UU a lot.

This UU allow the unique combination of Guerrilla III / CR III melee and later gunpowders units. This of course imply you 1) built enough UU early in the game, 2) promote them to Guerilla III before upgrading to maceman, 3) promote them to CR III before upgrading to rifleman, 4) keep them safe throught the game. A couple GGs attached to the Celt UU can really become terrifying mechanised infantry ... provided they survive till there.

For the UB, its mostly usefull if you built on a hill to get an extra 20% defence with bows in the early game. As it obsolete with rifle, you only keep this bonus if you upgrade your bows into gunpowder.

 

[Dirk1302]

Until 1060 AD

Spoiler :

Was forced to take lib this round as Han could research it and the ais are often very fast when they can actually research this tech. Took PP and research rocketed, i probably should have taken it 7 turns ago when i had it researched to 1 turn, oh well.

Not much to add, there should be one ai still out there. I've built 3 universities now, 2 in queue and the double clam city has begun on a library, that one has good production so Oxford should be online in ~15 turns, i'll see what i do then, for now i just research to economics then steel, rifles etc....I've begun building workshops, with guilds and a switch they'll soon get productive.

I'll get lots of gp later in the game since i've got only one now.

Overview:

 

[Dirk1302]

@Waraddict,

Is Guerilla III any good? Guerilla I and II are not completely useless but if you're not on a hill oh well. I actually dislike UU and UB for this reason.

 

[silverbullet]

Dirk:
Guerrilla III is good when attacking hills since it negates the hill defence bonus. It can be useful when fighting on tech parity or close to it (for example, musket+trebs vs longbows). With theocracy and the UB you can build guerrilla III units immediately. The unit will have a 50% withdrawal chance, and i think it has good synergy with Boudica who can a super-super healer (medic 3+woodsman 3) relatively easily (1 promotion after GG).

Overall I would say it's a niche use. You don't need it if you fight with cannons or rifles or cavalry vs. longbows. Still, it's not as bad as the Khmer UU.

 

[Waraddict]

I find Guerrilla III worthless on passive defensive units such as fortified longbows (guerrilla II and CG III), but invaluable on offensive units for the 50% bonus to attack on hills and the 50% withdrawal chance. I am quite used to attach my GGs to units so Guerilla III + tactic is a 80% withdrawal chance for your city raiders ... not to be overlooked imo.

 

[Dirk1302]

Thx, i'll keep this in mind next time i play Celts. I hope to update my game until approx 1500 AD tonight.

 

[silverbullet]

Quick update on my game (to the end):

Spoiler :

I was forced to get liberalism a bit early so I took astronomy and self researched chemistry->steel->military science. I managed to trade for military tradition and researched rifling.
I stayed in Bureaucracy and whipped an army of muskets/grenadiers/cannons and later cavalry.
I thought that grenadiers would work well with the UB, but it didn't really have any meaningful effect in the end, perhaps on a more hilly map it could make a difference.

Tech rate was good in spite of the war, using the money from captured cities to fuel deficit research in my bureaucracy/oxford capital I got around 600 beakers per turn. I beelined communism and got the great spy, which I was planning to use for a golden age after capturing the mausoleum.
Communism was important for me to eliminate colony maintenance costs.
I wiped out the Aztecs and then the Carthaginians with ease.

Next I declared on my good friend HC who started to attempt cultural. Joao must have dropped to cautious while I didn't notice, because HC vassalized to him and he declared war on me.

(Question: If the AI doesn't declare at pleased, can they declare at pleased for vassalage agreement? )

This was a bit unexpected and Joao had destroyers while I had frigates, but there was a safe path to the continent via the small island between Celtia and Carthage.

After a war in tech parity (infantry+artillery) against Joao, he capitulates. HC capitulates too, just as Elizabeth builds the united nations. I have enough votes to win so I liberate all my vassal's cities and just wait and press enter, until I am voted as the leader of the world.

 

[Dirk1302]

Well played.

Actually i finished some time ago, since nothing really interesting happened i can update to the end by heart.

Spoiler :

Took PP from lib and researched to steel/rifles. Research is good, so i plan on a space race. I think i can manage this before 1900 if i don't get into long drawn out wars.
Han is researching reasonably fast, i can win a war against Monty and him but it 'll take some time, also culture from Huyna and Joao will lessen the value of the land.So i decide to just take Washington's land with a minimum of rifles/cannons (approx 10 of each accompanied by some old rubbish). I declare around 1450 AD and i'm done somewhere around 1550 AD, my main cities have been back at building infra for some time already.

I have researched communism by now and chosen SP.Build ironworks in Washington, this cities has enormous production since there are only workshops there. This helps in building internet and apollo in time. I time production and science correctly so i can launch my ship 2 turns after the last tech (ecology) is in. Christo redentor helped a lot in switching between representation/US, also for the final switch back to caste system.

I land on Alpha 1882 AD.

This game was not too difficult, i think we might consider going back to Pangage for the series, the only way i can see myself run into trouble on this level is when it's crowded, aggressive ai's nearby and there's no room to expand. Unfortunately an axerush is often an adequate answer to this problem, i wonder how it is if we also don't have copper. It's actually a pity that Fireaxis hasn't build in a level between immortal and deity (deity is 2 levels more difficult than immortal at least in terms of research and production speed, not 1). Deity is challenging but it can be bit of a strain/frustrating at times.

In this game Joao had a huge chunk of land but i still didn't have any trouble out researching him.

 

[silverbullet]

Dirk:
I agree with you about the need of a level between deity and immortal.
For a tough immortal challenge we could do this:
Pangaea game with an extra AI (8 players).
The leader should be: not creative, not spiritual, not aggressive, not imperialistic. No early UU.
The map will have no copper or horses in the proximity of the capital. The neighbours will be imperialistic and aggressive.

What do you think about it? Any volunteer to create the map?