Immortal University XLV: Darius

lymond -
Spoiler :

Cut the copper ASAP, and spearmen should attack lone immortals so lure them out then hit the city. Keep moving and the AI will open up something.

Or do what I did. Before pops immortals are 70% against archers in cities and before BW there are no spears.
 
1 A.D.
Spoiler :

Founded two cities and trained 12 Immortals to rush Monte, with some more on queue. Pillaged the copper. Took 3 cities and then ran out of steam. With 5 Immortals in Tenochtitlan, Monte pulled up with a stack of 2 axes, 2 jaguars, and 2 spears so I gave back the third city (to the SE of Tenochtitlan) for peace circa 450BC.

After some consolidation, teching, and starting to build second army:
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I don't know why we're purple. Chopped and overwhipped, and still whipping for cats, swords, and axes to attack again. Hoping to take another 2-3 cities.

Border city:
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Rallying here. 2 more cats and 1 sword one the way, with more on queue.

Tech:
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Been having trouble popping a GS. There are scientists running in Persepolis and Pasargadae.

Diplo:
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Monte should be busy with Joao so it would be good to attack soon if possible.

Three things that I don't like:
1) The rush ran out of steam and I had to give a city back for peace.
2) There aren't enough cities; Joao snuck one near Pasargadae while I was rushing Monte
3) Having trouble popping a GS, not so great on tech. Researching Currency, which I hope to trade for Monarchy...
 
Deity/Normal 1 AD
Spoiler :

I decided to go after the oracle since Monty's capital had marble, I needed a monastery for missionaries and a temple for priest GP points. The 2 barb cities provided the cash to get me there and I decided to take Aesthetics from it and try for the Great Library which I ended up getting. Also I have been failure cash building all over since my tech is so slow.

At 1 AD I've got Aesthetics, Literature and just finished Code of Laws for courthouses. Joao is the only one with alphabet and I haven't traded with him yet. Unfortunately for me hinduism has only spread to 13 cities - 5 of them from my missionaries and Joao just picked up Taoism.. The shrine is in, but I should have built more missionaries before this point. Since Napoleon is so backwards and just declared on SB I will probably go math-construction and take him out shortly.

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Deity/Normal 1080 BC
Spoiler :

Settled in place, AH first then roads to hook up the horse. Then *immortals.

Caught Monty with 2 cities. And only 1 archer defending against my warrior and immortal. He got BW 3 turns after I declared, but I was just pillaging his copper.

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The captured city whipped a settler for the gold. And I was able to take the capital by leaving that city defended by only 2 warriors, luring his archers out to attack. 11 immortals against 4 archers in cap is no problem.

I've got the only religion on the continent so monasteries are next and roads. I'll want a Prophet first so I'll have to figure that out. Need 2 settlers and 2 barb cities to block and I've got 6 workers to cottage up. Total of 13 cities looks like. And I've got ivory/fur/gold/silver.

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Wish me luck, I'm going to give it a whirl. My Immortal record is currently over 90% defeat but I still keep coming back for more...maybe trying a forum game or two can help.
 
Immortal/normal 1000 AD-1894 AD diplo victory
Spoiler :
Win lib around 1150 and take nationalism. Start on Taj. AI's teching slowly. Nappy attacks Joao, as soon as he gets peace he dow's me. I'm a couple turns from rifles, so just need a couple muskets/xbows to stop a few elephants and maces.
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Tech - Joao is starting to take off in tech with green land and a nice shrine - sitting bull has brown land and is going culture.
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I take a few of nappy's cities with cavs then get peace. Scout Joao's infantry which changes my plan from cavs/cannons to cavs/arty. Want to attack him before he gets modern techs - i can afford to shut research off for a long war with him since no one else is teching fast. Game will be over if i take a few of his cities.
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Take a few cities from Joao and kill his army. Fighters/bombers hurt a bit but the artillery are enough.
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Nice shrine and mining inc. Would be a nice wall street city.
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Took the rest of his cities - thought he'd be eliminated but he had 1 island city. Capitulated him and attacked Nappy with left over troops.
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Eliminated him. I had UN from Joao so i go back to Hinduism and get environmentalism to save from having to do another war. Sitting bull votes for me for the win. JC was preparing for war against me since about 1700AD but never declared.
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1280AD resign
Spoiler :

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Only managed to take 2 more cities with the second assault on Monte. Then he vassalized to Napoleon. Backfilled land and started developing. Roosevelt took Liberalism, six turns before me on a final push. I think the game is lost since there are three masters on the continent and they're all stronger.
 
Deity/Normal 1070 AD
Spoiler :

After 1 AD I went right after construction and started on catapults everywhere. Got the HE in and that city went *WEs.. Joao went straight for liberalism without picking up machinery and got it at ~600AD which is when I decided to attack him instead of Napoleon. He had the AP, but it couldn't stop the war:

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I had won music and finished my GA the turn before after capturing Shwedagon and switching to Theocracy. Think I had 10 attacking units and 15 siege. 9th or 10th turn I took his capital. I promoted the catapults collateral-bombard so I could knock down the defenses to 0, sacrifice several catapults and take each city the first turn. With enough siege you only lose 1 or 2 attackers per city. At 1070 AD I took peace for education to take 10 turns off rifling.

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Napoleon has been at war with SB from the BCs. He does get a good SoD up, but then sacs it on the protected longbows. I'll probably start on Nap before finishing off Joao or getting rifling. Just have to build a few more knights to clean up his troops running through my land to SB.

EDIT - I should have grabbed math with the oracle and got construction right off instead of CoL. I don't think I bothered to get a courthouse in until after the wars started. Would have saved some of turns if I had started building cats earlier.



Deity/Normal 1 AD
Spoiler :

I decided to go after the oracle since Monty's capital had marble, I needed a monastery for missionaries and a temple for priest GP points. The 2 barb cities provided the cash to get me there and I decided to take Aesthetics from it and try for the Great Library which I ended up getting. Also I have been failure cash building all over since my tech is so slow.

At 1 AD I've got Aesthetics, Literature and just finished Code of Laws for courthouses. Joao is the only one with alphabet and I haven't traded with him yet. Unfortunately for me hinduism has only spread to 13 cities - 5 of them from my missionaries and Joao just picked up Taoism.. The shrine is in, but I should have built more missionaries before this point. Since Napoleon is so backwards and just declared on SB I will probably go math-construction and take him out shortly.

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Deity/Normal 1080 BC
Spoiler :

Settled in place, AH first then roads to hook up the horse. Then *immortals.

Caught Monty with 2 cities. And only 1 archer defending against my warrior and immortal. He got BW 3 turns after I declared, but I was just pillaging his copper.

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The captured city whipped a settler for the gold. And I was able to take the capital by leaving that city defended by only 2 warriors, luring his archers out to attack. 11 immortals against 4 archers in cap is no problem.

I've got the only religion on the continent so monasteries are next and roads. I'll want a Prophet first so I'll have to figure that out. Need 2 settlers and 2 barb cities to block and I've got 6 workers to cottage up. Total of 13 cities looks like. And I've got ivory/fur/gold/silver.

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Attachments

1280AD resign
Spoiler :

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Only managed to take 2 more cities with the second assault on Monte. Then he vassalized to Napoleon. Backfilled land and started developing. Roosevelt took Liberalism, six turns before me on a final push. I think the game is lost since there are three masters on the continent and they're all stronger.
Spoiler :

Losing lib isn't that big of a deal. Strange that ROosy got it - in my game he had 1 island city and was JC's vassal. It's hard to tell how bad of a situation you're in from the screenshot. This map is really forgiving - especially since Joao is small. If you're anywhere close to the AIs in tech i think it would be winnable. Attack Monty/Nappy with about 20 cannons as soon as you can build them. If you take some of their land you'll be set. Sitting bull's land is brown so won't be much of a threat. In my game Joao was the only AI that even had a chance to win and he looks very manageable in your game. If you can get up to #1 in land diplo win is an option if Roos or JC builds it.
 
Deity/Normal 1595 AD domination
Spoiler :

After taking out Joao I built wealth everywhere until I had cavalry. Then set every city to auto production so they would whip them out.

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As I was gearing up SB sent a 60+ unit stack to Napoleon. As he was at the gates of Paris I gave him philosophy in return for peace with Nap. 5 or 6 turns later Nap was finished. I lost only 5 cavalry taking him out and he had muskets.

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After that I just had to clean up SBs stack and visit each of his cities. With his spies and pillaging it must be tough to attack him if you only had 6 or 7 cities.

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@Tempesta:
Spoiler :
Thank you. I looked at your game and everyone else's games already. With a start next to Monte, enough AI to keep Joao's expansion in check, and by looking at how everyone else has gone about it seems pretty clear here that this map encourages conquest. I think you may be right - might go back and play it anyway or start over even though I already know what to expect.

I have since played a game on Emperor/Normal, end up playing as Sury next to Ghenghis Khan. I founded three cities, and went *sword, *catapults and just went on a rampage, wiping out 8 of his cities and knocking him off the map. Later I globe drafted rifles and went *rifles->infantry, *trebs->cannons and wiped out the other neighbor, Pacal, taking 11 cities and reducing Pacal to a vassal on a remote island.


@all:
Spoiler :
Impressive games, through and through. Would you guys say that given enough land (or potential land), the combination of cottage spam + unit spam, or build wealth everywhere + tech military + unit spam, or unit spam + to hell with infrastructure works well? I know this is an oversimplification but I'm starting to think that this is what I need. Seriously, I have been on this quest for "perfect play" for weeks now and am still learning a lot in that respect, but there have been tons of games that I think I might have given up early due to being intimidated by the AI, e.g, "oh no, AI won liberalism, I quit" or "oh no, AI has vassals, I quit" or even "oh no, my neighbor is aggressive/protective, I'm gonna lose." Perhaps just by turning up the aggression a notch, building more units faster, and hitting the neighbors a the right time, a lot of these games that seem lost can actually be won. Can it really be this simple? :eek:
 
Units + cottages will work, yes, assuming you can work enough worthwhile tiles and keep your caps up. Less comes from the multipliers than you might expect.
 
The key is having enough hammers, whether straight up or from the whip (as for whip each happy is another whipped unit). Once you have catapults it doesn't matter what the AI has until engineering and castles I guess. Then of course you'll need the next higher class of siege. And if building wealth gets you there faster than building a courthouse or what not than thats what you do until you get the military advantage again.

In my game:
Spoiler :

I think most of my infrastructure was not necessary. Really it was just Temples and Monasteries due to the AP, Forge and courthouse. Needed the courthouses, but the rest was probably not necessary. I only fit them in after my catapult war before I realized I should just build wealth until cavalry.

Prior to the catapult war, I should have just went straight for construction. While waiting for construction to come in I could have been building Axe's or something instead of say the GLh or SoZ that I built or hammers I put into fail cash. But prior to currency/alphabet/construction I'm just building infrastructure because I have nothing else to do.

Of course if I can't war at catapults then I'm not going to war until cavalry or something around 1000+ AD. Then you've got the turns to allow infrastructure to payoff versus say building wealth.

But anyway key for me was realizing that collateral damage is ridiculously effective. That and flanking. 25 cats and 10 axe mean you can take a civ out in deity. How many hammers is that? Well really it was 28 catapults or 4/city and ~15 attackers that I lost taking out Joao. Who had already picked up liberalism before I attacked. But not engineering :D
 
Immort/Normal

1785 Conquest/Domination

Spoiler :
Like TMIT, I moved for the river and dropped my city back to get the horses online asap. Roads were built to Monty and I whip/chopped out about 8 immortals. The first city was a push over, the cap (buddhist holy city) defied odds and survived with one archer at .2 health; I took it the next turn but Monty's third city (on the river with the Cu in the BFC) already had two spears. I skipped around it and took the pig-gold city and kill the marble - Fe city (did not have Fe showing at the time).

Tech was Ag -> AH -> BW -> Pottery -> Alphabet. Conquest cash was extremely useful for getting alpha early. I made peace with one city Monty for pretty much all the rest of the ancient era techs. I dropped a blocking city on the western coast near the grassland iron just south of Jao, settled a mass fur city on the river and took a barb city with wine/food/and Ag in the BFC.

Tech was now out to construction; I chop/whipped out the hanging gardens in Monty's grassland Fe city near my cap's river in order to uncover the green tiles and use the hammers on the something useful; also GE points seemed advisable. I was planning to smack Monty with pults + immortals, but getting multiple FE online let me mass some axes and swords quicker. I declared war, uses an immort to crush a pop 1 city with only an archer and then sent in the stack to kill his new cap and reclaim the Cu. His last city (in the desert near the multiple Au) died shortly thereafter.

Tenochtilan was made into a :hammers: city for the HE; first GP (a GSc) was dropped as an academy into the cap. Every other city is made into cottages spam with the odd mine thrown in. The cap pops Cu in one its hills. Tech now is on to lit -> music; I win the parth (chopped out in tenochtilan), TGL (built in cap), and the GA from music (saved for a later GA). I get failure cash off the Paya and SoZ.

Initially I back Hindu Nappy vs Jewish SB and Jewish Joa. This was a mistake as the Portugal vs France war is going strongly in favor of Portugal. I get asked to help kill the French (after having embargoed Portugal), and decide to poach some cities with my axes/swords/immortals/mass pults. The French have LBs, but I get the Fe/Marble city on the east coast easy and elect to leave it for a NP/NE city. I tech out CS -> paper -> philo (bulb, no religion founded) -> paper. I use philo and music to trade for military techs and mass upgrade to CRIII maces. Civics are HR/B/Slave/OR having revolted into each when they became an option; religion is Jewish.


After taking Paris, the French cap and I grab lib while back trading for some bottom half techs (most importantly getting optics and engineering). I take Astro off lib, and then run PP -> Chemistry -> Steel. At lib I burn the GA from music to start a GA and flip civics to HR/FS/Slave/FR.

Everything is mass cottages and the HE city at this point. In my horse/clam city I finally build the MS. At steel I turn off science and mass upgrade the cannons to go pound Jao. I tech MS inteding to get CRIII grenadiers, but Jao caps after one city (his coastal Jewish holy city) and I push on up to SB (who is backward with nothing beyond the standard LBs -> knights mix. 4 cities (including capital) later, SB caps.

Tech is now out to communism -> rifling -> physics -> arty.

Cannons are mass upgraded to arty, all of my CI/CRIII maces become rifles. A mass rushbuy of galleons sends them over to hit the Americans, the Romans have given us OBs so we have airships in their cities for support.

We take one American city and get close to taking two (while the Americans lacked astro, they actually had enough caravels to kill 4 galleons and then take out 2 with 6 CR rifles inside; if I had waited just one freaking turn for my frigate). Roosevelt caps.

Tech has been using Jao for useful things (like RP, Steam power, Corporation, constitution, Railroad, AL) while I get the quick bonuses (e.g. bio). I found Mining Inc and use a second GA with the communism spy/random GSc to flip civics to US/FS/Caste/SP->FM/FR->Theo. Kremlin is the last wonder I built. I trade for medicine and found Sushi.

I mass upgrade all my units in American lands to cav/infantry, and tech Fascism out to flight. I gift Roosevelt up to AL and RR and declare on Rome. Rome invades America, I use about 20 airships to weaken his stack and leave my vassal to otherwise fend for himself; I head up to go take Rome.

No surprises here, infantry + arty > MGs + cannons + grenades + curis. Through sheer dint of numbers the Romans manage to take 2 American cities (I evacuate the airships), but I get flight online rushbuy airports and quickly dump in enough units to retake the place. Last tech of the game is industrialism for tanks. After this I'm just mass building tanks, airlifting them, and waiting for Rome to cap.

Mistakes made:
1. Not going for extermination on my 2/3rds of the globe. Just marginally better scouting would have shown that I could get domination without bothering the Americans/Romans. This would have massively decreased finish date.
2. Backing the French. Normally Nappy is good about spamming units and soaking up AI defenders, but Portugal had better land and better tech via trading.
3. Letting caravels sink two full galleons of expensive troops. Not just because they were costly, but because it took too long to get reinforcements over.

All told Darius, with horses in the BFC, plenty of land, and two backward civs across the water makes for an easy game. I should have won this around 1500.
 
Immortal, normal speed.

Ok immortal is a longshot for me, so I will only play the first 100 turns to practice rushing early with immortals/chariots. I'd really appreciate any tips!!

Spoiler :

Tech path : Mining + BW (to chop a settler) -> AH -> wheel -> pottery -> Writing -> Aesthetics (research slider at 0%)

Capital builds : Worker -> Warrior (until growth) -> Worker -> Settler -> barracks -> immortals

Second city was planned near pigs + corn but montezuma settled there. So I settle north 2E from cow in the middle of hills, future production / war city. (will farm the floodplains and grass to support population for the mines.)

I make around 12 immortals by 1000BC and rush.

Outcome 1

I send 2 immortals from the back of montezuma's empire because the way to the copper mine is shorter from there. I DoW him, pillage the copper mine and its road, and move on the capital with all my immortals. Monte has 1 spear, 1 axeman, and 2 archers and the city has +60% defense. 4-5 immortals die to the spear alone, and at the end of combat only 2 badly wounded immortals survives and there is an almost dead archer and almost dead spearman in the city. By next turn montezuma reinforces with fresh troops. I fail.

Outcome 2

I reload a savegame and attack his 2 smaller cities instead of the capital. I am able to take them both with heavy losses

(archers with city garrison, +20 culture defense, and fortified +25% + axemen).

If I keep the cities, montezuma keeps sending stacks and eventually get them back as I can't keep making immortals fast enough even with whipping. The only way I found was to negotiate peace, but that only works if I give him 1 city back (I gave the one north near the mountains and kept the pigs/corn one)... Which means I am still boxed in my small piece of land.

Variation

1) I tried an extra settler for a third city making immortals. But I end up with less chariots by 1000BC this way.
2) BEST RESULT : I also tried a single city (capital) making a single worker and rushing barracks and immortals by whipping, this was my best result as I was able to take 1 city, raze another (south of his capital) by 1200BC and cripple him considerably since other AIs are at 6 cities, me at 3, while he is at 2. At this point I decided to make peace and rebuild. I will research IW hopefully revealing iron in my area, and maybe attack him again with either axemen or crossbowmen + a spy as siege.

Screenshot + savegame at 1240BC (I marked where I plan to build my cities) :

 

Attachments

@Sarrassin
Spoiler :

12 immortals at 1000 BC is more than i had i think so im not sure why the rush didn't work out for you. He'll get spears (a spear anyway) before you can take the capital but just don't attack it. Pillage the copper and try to bait the spear to attack you outside of the city. If that doesn't work just leave the city with the spear(s) alone and take the other ones. I don't like the 1 worker approach. I usually like to have 2 cities and 3 workers for a rush with the 2nd city being a good hammer site. Most units come from capital with 2-3 coming from city 2. 3 workers lets you chop fast enough and road. You also could have a size 6 capital meaning you should have 6 tiles improved there which i don't see. Especially with an immortal rush (extra movement) you can out maneuver the AI if his cities are defended too well. Running around baiting spears out, and pillaging all improvements works really well. With no improvements in his capital there's no way he can outproduce you - especially since he'll be building archers while you are reinforcing with immortals which crush archers. In my game i know he didn't have IW yet which might change some things though.
 
@ Sarassin

Spoiler :
In order to catch an AI without spears you want to get into his city in the minimum number of turns. It is far more important to take the cap, particularly a holy city cap, than to get the Cu offline in the first few turns, especially given that this is monty and he will be getting jags regardless pretty quick.

A few other things:
1. BW first is not so hot for chariot rushes, you need to know where the horses are and get them linked up ASAP. If I think I'm going to chariot rush an AI, particularly a time sensitive one like Monty, then I want my horses ASAP.
2. Baiting spears, especially a single spear is quite doable. Leave a chariot two squares from the city on a flat, unforested tile, preferably a square without roads, and then let the spear kill it. You then either kill the spear on the flat land, or roll into the city.
3. If at all possible for an early inconclusive war, you want to get Alphabet. This allows you to extort lots of techs from an AI that you don't quite manage to kill. Getting 3 cities + a bunch of tech is much better than just 3 cities.
4. Why did you raze the city to the south? Unless it was an auto-raze (due to being pop 1) that territory is worth it just for the fur, let alone the wine/silver; as a bonus it pushes Monty into the other AIs when he starts settling after the war.
5. If you are running two cities/two workers, then you likely want to consider forests and food over hills for a rush production city. Your second city is only going to contribute 4 units (unless you skip the rax) to the initial rush; chops and whips are far quicker than slow working a mine. It is perfectly acceptable to chop out all the wood in a rush production city and stack anger until you are only working a single pigs tile; a successful rush more than pays the opportunity cost.

 
@mirthadir & @Tempesta13

Spoiler :

12 immortals at 1000 BC is more than i had i think so im not sure why the rush didn't work out for you.
Zuma and Jao started to hate each other leading to war and I belive this made him go into unit spam mode a lot earlier.
Baiting spears, especially a single spear is quite doable
When you bait spear with a single immortal, do you leave your immortal stack near the city? Does leaving the stack out of city reach augment the chances of the spearmen going out of it to attack?

He has 2 spearmen in the capital, yet he won't attack my single immortal outside the city even if I leave it there for many turns.
4. Why did you raze the city to the south?
I had 2 wounded immortals there after taking it, and a couple of zuma's axes + archer were on their way. I razed instead of letting him recapture it.

In all cases I restarted a couple of times and focussed on more early chopping / whipping. The single thing that makes a huge difference was placing my second city in the middle of the largest chunk of forests and chopping, and also attacking before zuma's border pops on his second city so I can reach his capital in 1 turn instead of 2 just after declaring war. This way I only found 2 archers at the capital instead of at least 3 archers and an axeman. I was able to take the capital with a small 6 immortals stack. After that I pillaged the mine and moved on the city north since it was his second best production city.

But this seems to be hit and miss. I restarted to see if the same strategy would work again, attacked with 12+ immortals by 1000BC reaching his capital in 1 turn after declaring war. But this time he had 2 spearmen, 1 axeman, and 2 archers and these alone defended against my 12 immortals. (Baiting did not work, and the more I wait the more units he make.)

So it seems I am not able to do it consistently and there is some luck involved. Especially when zuma puts a city to the north west (near the mountains) and blocks my easy access to his capital, so I can't reach it in 1 or even 2 turns. If I go around and attack his other cities on the back, I get crushed by his culture, especially from the capital and can't use any tiles.

Early I always do the same build order : AH->wheel->mining->BW-> ...
Capital : worker -> barracks (growth to use wheat + farm for whipping) -> settler -> finish barrack then *immortals
Second city : worker -> *immortals
Both workers chop until clearing all trees in BFC of both cities. When I am out of trees/whips I assemble the stack and attack, always before 1000BC.

 
Diplomatic Victory 1938. However i switched speed to epic because i like it more. It was an awesome game with lots of things i tried out for the first time.

Spoiler :

Game history:
-WTH Monty ? Captured worker (he has to die anyway) and immortal rushed him.
-Napoleon DoWed on me and was throwing stacks after stacks at my border city until apostolic palace stopped the war. It gave me three great generals thx.
-Won liberalism race
-Tried a cavalry rush (first time ever) and completely stomped Napoleon who DoWed me once again
-DoWed on Joao but i was only able to capture four cities with my cav because he already had infantry.
-DoWed again on Joao (this time with tanks and artillery) and captured all his cites with bazillions of wonders (including UN)
-Built ~200 nukes (first time ever), fired about 100 of them at Sitting Bull and another 100 at JC. However only about 20 fired at JC were successful...
-Captured about 10 cities of Sitting Bull without any defense units and then won a diplomatic victory with 420 votes (417 needed). Global warning was really starting to be annoying and JC had an army twice as big as mine... he could have easily steamrolled me.

All in all a very funny game.


 
Spoiler :
Well this has been a fun game, except for my first attempt where I built a third city, then got DoWed by Monty before I could get my Immortal rush online! He then massed spears (and I do mean massed, never seen the AI do anything like it) so that was that. I gave up, but the fact that this is a comparative forum game intended as a learning experience inspired me to have another crack at it, with interesting and educational results. More details later with screens if I can get my internet connection to stop being annoying.
 
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