Immortal University XXIX: Hammurabi

[shyuhe]

@norxposr

Spoiler :

Correct, successful begging of gold/map/tech buys you 10 turns of peace. You can even use it to avoid a declaration when the AI stack is on your border. Instead, the stack will wander around your territory near the target city. Slightly abusive of the AI script but it helps a lot. Especially to prevent your target from becoming a vassal to a civ you don't want to fight.

If Washington is cautious, you'll have to demand money from him. But if you're about equal in power and you demand a small sum, he'll probably give it to you in exchange for a diplo demerit. Since it sounds like you'll steamroll him eventually anyways, it's probably not a huge loss for you at this point.

 

[Fluxx]

Awkward...

Spoiler :

Uhm, does Mao declare at pleased, I swear he didnt.. ?

 

[DanF5771]

^

Spoiler :

Absolutely -- both Chinese leaders have a NoWarProb-Pleased of 80, just like Alex, Cathy, Louis, Monty, Victoria and Willem. Even Shaka has more qualms to attack "friends" with his NowarProb-Pleased of 90 (though he will think about it way more often...).

 

[norxposr]

@fluxx

Spoiler :

Unless I have old data, his percentages are listed as 0/30/80/100, which if I understand this properly means that he does in fact declare at pleased (ignores war declaration 80% of time, not 100%)

 

[Fluxx]

^

Spoiler :

Absolutely -- both Chinese leaders have a NoWarProb-Pleased of 80, just like Alex, Cathy, Louis, Monty, Victoria and Willem. Even Shaka has more qualms to attack "friends" with his NowarProb-Pleased of 90 (though he will think about it way more often...).

Spoiler :

Sigh, that means I basically lost the game because of faulty knowledge.

1000 AD, Mao suddenly DoW's me, because I was under the assumption he didnt DoW on pleased I kept pushing my relations with him, and didnt build any military at all.
Even when he was WHEOON...

Vacation apparently seriously hampers your civ knowledge

 

[norxposr]

Since DanF5771 is present...

Spoiler :

I have Washington's "Declare on X" as being cautious. Does this mean that since I am in fact cautious with Washington, that Mansa can't bribe him into a war with me. I'm currently trying to decide on taking Mao or Mansa on, but am afraid Mansa will bring Washington into it. They love each other.

 

[DanF5771]

@fluxx:

Life is a strategy game. Then why play civ you wonder? You can reload!

@norxposr: No, you'd need him at pleased to prevent that. You might want to check TheRealCzar's recent article.

 

[shyuhe]

Thanks for the link DanF, that's a great table.

 

[norxposr]

Thanks. I have always been confused about the "Declare On" and "Delcare on X" values.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@TMIT: Did you consider barrage 3 cannons instead of cr3 cannons?

I USED barrage on occasion, but much less frequently because I promote units as needed and only encountered two situations in this game where I was fighting a large stack in the field. For those battles I used barrage (and even drill once), but generally CR is going to be better for taking cities, especially if you have CR III and airships since the siege will tend to live.

 

[Grashopa]

Immortal/Normal 1080 BC - I was just starting up a Hammurabi game when I saw this. I wanted to check out how the bowman do.

Spoiler :

I settled in place, and went after fishing. I want the early warrior and boat for exploration. The first hut was a map which caused me to go after archery since I'm looking at a lot of open area.

I need to deal with Mao first, and figure my longer term plan for teching.

At this point I think the Great Lighthouse would be good. There are a lot of good coastal spots and I have a great settler/bowman factory in the capital. Going up the coast allows a few extra cities and the GLh means I can push my expansion as far as I want. The south coast by the cows and wheat looks perfect for a city to put out the GLh. With the food in my capital I think I can then settle center island and north coast to cut off Mao.

Did I really just pop gold at my capital? This is going to be a ridiculous start.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm149/grashopa2/Civ4ScreenShot0142.jpg[img]

ugh!? theres a barbarian city blocking my trade route. At this point I had forgotten about the kitten barbs and figured I'm damn lucky for the gold since my plans are ruined.

[img]http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm149/grashopa2/Civ4ScreenShot0143.jpg

And not only is there a barb city in the north, these mountains block me on the western route. 15 or so useless trade turns before I can get a boat here after the GLh.

And OMG the americans just lost their C3 archer against this warrior leaving a 48% chance.. Will I get the city?

I did, and its got population for a monument whip.

At this point the next settler is going to choke off Hatty and Washington's access to the center area. If my 2 bowman can take the north barbarian city as well before Mansa then I will have free rein to expand. The bowmans will be perfect here as I don't have to worry at all about getting attacked.

I'm also thinking I may get GLh and then Artemis and colossus in my southern city. Hopefully who ever snagged hinduism isn't building artemis. I'll have good GMs which should mean my expansion is no problem. Oh and I got the 3rd city on the north the turn before Mao tried to settle there.

I'm going after math right now, but wondering if I should get alphabet since no one has it yet. Since I'm spamming settlers and have a lot of forest I just clicked on math for +50% chop and the hanging gardens population - I'll never get the GE though. Calendar is a must...

 

[bobbyboy29]

200BC Imm/Epic

Spoiler :

Been Owning emperor as of recent so first shot at Immortal lets see how i go!
OK so i went a bit differently to most and only settled one city towards Mao made a mistake not putting copper in first ring or researching archery early enough which led to some close calls with barbs. I have however settled aggresively towards the north (and captured a nice barb city) but i fear i have left Mao too much room oh well. Beelined Aesthetics and traded it off but this means mansa will beat me to lit, i have to settle a city on the marble to have any hope of nabbing Glib. Also building SoZ with ivory for failure cash. Positives, with not much to build i ran a couple of scientists in cap and have a Gsci ready to bulb Philo after I get med. I do really need Currency and CoL and the economy has crashed a bit, oh well.

Please let me know how i'm doing pics of the empire/tech situation attached.

 

[shyuhe]

@bobbyboy29

Spoiler :

That's some aggressive underfunded expansion You're probably going to need a lot more workers than normal to catch up. You have lots of good land so just try to get it up and running as fast as you can. I'd shoot for almost 2:1 given the number of cities you have and the jungle. Also, if you can afford it you should try to finish your blocking so that you'll have lots of nice fertile land. CoL is great for Hammy because of half-price courthouses. If you get it early enough, it may also give you enough EP to steal techs off of a neighbor.

 

[Grashopa]

@bobbyboy

Spoiler :

I wish I had chosen epic after playing this map a bit

I'm glad I took a look at your spoiler. I'm at the point I have to decide on aesthetics/math/alphabet, and had forgotten about the cheap courthouses and I had never used the aesthetics-build wonders for failure gold tactic.. I think the tech path here is very important for the outcome of the game.

Alphabet first then tech aesthetics might have allowed you to trade alpha around for iron working and such and still get the lead to literature. If you had a good production city running research may also have been useful for a time.

I'm not sure you needed to go for GLib - unless you have a strong GP farm picked out I think its really just 6 beakers a turn that may have cost expansion - I'd never build anything but settlers and workers in my capital this game... Could going straight for CoL have been better - the food seems good though I avoided looking at your screenshots. Running a merchant(and artist for the first border) in your expansion cities is probably the best they can do for awhile no? Or obviously currency-build wealth depending on the food/hammer situation. But I think the fast expansion here will mean a lot of cities not on the trade network and a lack of workers to make improvements early. So the 3 gold per turn is probably superior at the point you are at.

I think obviously early on we knew there was a lot of land to expand into, and with the bowmen and the food in the capital we can afford to really push it. Also barb cities with warriors in them is nice for cash. I went with the Great Lighthouse, though I have trade network issues.. The GLh is going to allow me to go after some GMs. I can't see myself bothering to go after liberalism here - the tech advantage is not going to be necessary at all as far as I can tell. I want to support my expansion and make sure I settle a lot of production sites for a domination win.

I assume you are going after domination as well. Do you know who you will attack first? I'm going to need to keep my goal in mind or else all this land is going to cause me to go fill it up and forget what I'm doing.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Quick Update (no pics) and thanks for all the comments guys!

Spoiler :

Ok so first of all, self researching IW was a mistake but i wanted to get all the jungle chopped, HOWEVER researching Aesth next was NOT a mistake! It was the only tech i could research that everyone else didnt have and i got a bunch of goodies for it. Also built SoZ in2 cities for cash which really helped me tech, Also the GLib has helped me win lib race effectively by spawning a bunch of GS's in my makeshift GP farm capital. Just got NE in the northern city which can run 6-7 scientists and will take over now. OK so on the diplomatic front, Mao is a backwards beast, good thing I converted to his reli as he went Wheoohrn but attacked mansa with a massive stack taking one city and razing another. Oh well its his maintenance now... The real preoblem here is Hatty who has had Nat since before i had paper ! bye bye marble fuelled Taj dreams. Anyway new question, 7 city empire cottages up and workers spamming, good happy cap and 2 good prod cities. Lib is in the bag but cant delay too long, what do i attack mao (or maybe even Mansa?) with? Save attached!

 

[GenerallyGreat]

My post got eaten. I'll try again later. I did win though.

 

[Dendrite]

Immortal/Normal, BTS 3.17

275 AD

Spoiler :

Tech path: AH -> Mining -> BW -> Fishing -> Mysticism -> Sailing -> Masonry -> Aesthetics (trade for Alphabet, Mathematics, Monotheism, IW and others) -> Currency (trade for Calendar, Monarchy)

Settled in place, planning to build the GLH. I plan to build two cities in the east to more or less block off Mao with only a small gap. Build order worker/4 warriors/settler. I get both cities more or less where I want them, and then work on preparing for building the GLH.

The Great Lighthouse is built in 1000 BC. Unfortunately I can’t get many foreign trade routes because there’s a barbarian city blocking the coast to the north and Sury (who I don’t know yet) blocking to the west.

I get Aesthetics in 475 BC and trade it around for all sorts of things. I’m going to skip the GL in this game as I need to expand quickly to the northwest, which up to this point I’ve been neglecting in favour of more immediately usable cities to the south. In 1 AD I have 7 cities, and some more room to place about 2 more to the northwest.

I also meet Sury, who’s currently in the process of overrunning Hatty.

Unfortunately I forgot to take proper screenshots at this stage. Here’s a view of the centre of my empire:

Liberalism

Spoiler :

Tech path: CoL (traded for Construction, HR) -> CS -> Paper -> bulb Philosophy (traded for Music, Machinery) -> Education (traded for Drama, Theology, Compass) -> Printing Press (partially bulbed)

Two more cities were built in this part of the game – one far to the north next to the gems (and almost surrounded by Mansa Musa) and one right on top of the marble.
The Statue of Zeus is being built in Dur-Kurigalzu (bordering the Chinese) for culture if I get it, and for failure cash if I don’t. In the end, Mao beats me to it. Taoism is founded late, in 560 AD, by Augustus in a distant land. And then I somehow manage to build the Parthenon in 660 AD:

And then, even more bizarrely, I pick up the Mausoleum in 900 AD.

I try for the Great Library as well, but miss by two turns in 940 AD. Still, after getting the other two, I can’t really complain.

Around 740 AD Hatty finally capitulated to Sury. I’m now his worst enemy, but he can’t reach me as Washington hates him and has closed his borders.

I get enough espionage to see Mansa Musa’s research, and it tells me that he’s going for Liberalism. Indeed, he gets it in 1090 AD:

Cultural victory, 1903 AD

Spoiler :

Tech path: PP -> Nationalism (traded for Astronomy) -> Military Tradition (traded for Liberalism, Banking) -> Gunpowder -> Replaceable Parts (traded for Economics, Constitution) -> Rifling -> Chemistry -> Steel -> Steam Power -> Railroad

I start off by building the Sistine Chapel in 1120 AD:

I pop a GA in Babylon with 8% odds and use it for a Mausoleum-extended Golden Age. I try to use this to get the Taj Mahal but Mansa Musa still somehow beats me to it.

Mao is a notorious backstabber so I decide to remove him from contention (and besides, having more cities will help regardless of the victory type I choose).

Mao goes for Physics instead of the military techs, so I have some time to build up an army of cavalry and trebuchets (which I later upgrade to cannons). In 1600 AD Mao is about to get Rifling and I invade. There’s a bit of a struggle at first as Mao manages to retake one of his cities at the front line, but after a few turns his forces are broken. I take all his good cities:

and then he capitulates after I take Guangzhou in 1680 AD. Mao has built just the Statue of Zeus, although there are a few Great People settled in his cities.

At this point a domination victory seems very difficult with Sury fielding a massive (albeit backward) army. Since I have the Sistine Chapel and some other nice cultural wonders (and 5 religions) a cultural victory seems to be the best option here. From now on it’s really just a matter of spreading religions and building temples and cathedrals. My 3 culture cities were the capital and the two cities that originally bordered the Chinese.

The only risk here was that Sury would declare war on me with his very large but backward army. He actually went into WHEOORHN four times after I went to war with Mao, but the first time he declared war on Washington (at pleased) and the second and third times he just went out of it without doing anything.

And then:

 

[gcm4738]

I'm in... Monarch player and I haven't played in a few months, but thought I'd give this one a go. And at 610 AD... I'm still alive!

Imm/Epic

Spoiler :

My strategy really was just to try and play a clean, tight game, keep up as best I could and not get killed. So far that's been accomplished. Although you could argue about the "keeping up" part...

No wonders built, no religions founded. 6 cities (2 captured from barbs). Settled in place. Went for copper site to the SE first to block Mao. Then went up north. Then went westwards. Joined Mansa and Mao in Bhuddist Bloc. MM gave me Myst. I don't think I've ever had the AI give me anything before. Tech was AH > Mining > BW > Hunting > Arch then to Alpha, Currency, Construction, Calendar then back for MC > now teching Machinery. I'm still a little behind. One or two small trades with Mao - nothing major.

About 0 AD I was reasonably strong militarily - built plenty of Bowmen. Then dropped military for research/expansion and now I'm lagging a little bit. Building some shock jumbos and catapults. But the AI's are on - or nearly on - Maces/Pikes/Trebs. Washington is a threat I think. He was WHEOOHRN a while back. I have a feeling I should try to mix up some trouble between the MM/Mao/me Bhuds and the Hindu Hattie/Washington bloc, but not sure about how or whether that's right. 2 GS so far. One built Acad in capital. The other is currently stockpiled (bulb Edu?).

I've never survived an Imm game this long. I think if the map were tighter or AI more aggressive, I would be eaten by now. I still think someone might push me over and take my lunch money fairly soon. I'm moving my military (such as it is) to the far west city where GW would be likely to attack.

Don't see attacking anyone in the near future. Think I'll try to carry on getting the last couple of cities up to speed. Keep up as best I can with tech, while trying to win the Liberalism race and then see where I'm at. If I survive that long...

 

[GenerallyGreat]

Immortal/epic

Spoiler :

Anyway I'm not re-typing my whole post just the important parts, 415AD liberalism by Hatty.

I was teching CS at the time so there was a fair bit of catching up to do. I followed Hatty up the lib line and burned 2 golden ages and bulbed PP thanks to my Great Library GP capital. I got Democracy first and hit parity with Hatty and MM. Washington had vassaled MM peacefully then Sury by force by the 1300's AD. That wasn't too scary but then he attacked the backward Mao before I was ready for war so I had to defend my Chinese neighbour. After a mostly defensive war I did take 2 cites from America before it turned into a bit of a stalemate. So I took peace and headed towards a tank/spy war.

I didn't have massed tanks straight away but I was up against Cavalry/rifles so it did just fine. I took half of his cites before I capped him and headed towards Sury. Halfway through the USA war I got a very rare offer.

Mao was friendly with me and was getting his butt handed to him after trying to invade AC. Sury was terribly backward and only had rifles because I gave him Gunpowder/RP/Rifling when he was being attacked by Washington.

I needed more land area as I didn't want to build boats to take AC for a cap win so I eliminated the alien.
Lastly and as usual MM had about 4 units per city and one small stack of infantry/arty/cavs so I attacked him using a few planes with my tanks in an effort to practice my late war game. Usually I'm backward for my last wars and have to just mass inf/arty so this game was rare fun.

I capped MM and then hit enter for about a dozen turns at 100% culture for the Domination win in 1808.

Behold the power of an early Mining Inc
And some final stats.

 

[norxposr]

Continued from post #17.

Spoiler :

So here is my northern empire in 1490AD just before going to war:

Here is the South along with the two army stacks:

And the tech situation:

When I posted earlier I remembered incorrectly. Mansa in fact did not have gunpowder.

1860 AD Diplomacy

Spoiler :

Here I was ready to take out Mao, but not being the type to ask for advice (from shyuhe) and then ignore it, I shifted my troops to the north, demanded a map from Washington and Mao for 10 turns of forced piece, and proceeded to wipe out Mansa. Since he had some techs I wanted and with 3.19 vassals will always trade, I left him 1 bad city and gave him a bunch of military techs for the ones up the democracy line. I then repeated the process, without a break, on Mao.

After Mao, I teched to Artillery before taking on Washington (he was beginning to get Infantry). Washington went quickly, and I left him enough cities to provide a cultural barrier between me, Hatty, and Sury.

I could have just continued on with Sury and Hatty to domination, but my computer gets really slow trying to select and move troops around. Instead, I built research to get computers, so I could get the Internet (Hatty and Sury had some good techs). While I built the internet, I teched stuff they didn’t have.

In reality I was just killing time. The internet never got built because:

Demographics:

And the empire:

The game was over for me about half way through the Mao war. A better player probably thought it was over around liberalism, but I never underestimate my ability to screw things up.

A few thoughts:

Spoiler :

Shyuhe’s advice was definitely the way to go. I went back and replayed a few turns, and attacking Mao took far longer with heavier losses. He had a lot of troops. By attacking Mansa first, I was attacking Mao with experienced troops, making it much easier.

Having used the demand/beg for 10 turns of piece for the first time now, I think this is the best tip I’ve learned in a while on the forums. So much so, that I’m not sure it isn’t an exploit (especially when I stopped a very clear attack from Mao), but I’m not one to nitpick. At immortal, I’m taking all the advantages I have.

Also the 3.19 vassal change where they always trade is very powerful. I never used to take vassals, because of the “We yearn for our motherland” unhappiness, but now taking a weak but advanced AI (like Mansa in this game) can be very powerful in the mid to late game.