Implications of Early Game Eureka Patterns for Build Orders

[happybjorn]

I wonder if I should count how many times something like "build a slinger" appears? I doubt early game cash from exploration will be as ridiculous as in V, but it seems likes buying one will be a better move.

Besides, I don't see the rush for getting that slinger. Sure, there is value in getting it sooner, but that opportunity won't pass by as quickly as others.

Edit: For the early builder, I just don't see stealing them as a reliable strategy (if the AI is predictable, you would have to camp near someone you thought was going to build it and then snag it before it used up too many charges... or get really lucky). Even as Aztecs I'd build the first one myself.

 

[Sprenk]

So if you're trying to get an early pantheon and plan to use the God King card (which gives faith) to do it, how does building a monument first instead of a scout substantially help you reach that goal? You're already researching Code of Laws when the game opens, and by the time the monument is built, isn't Code of Laws already about to be learned? (Depends on hammers available in the city, game speed you're playing at, etc.)

In other words, I'm still not seeing Monument as an optimal 1st build option. And, if I'm right, that's good, because it never made sense to me that you'd start the game building a monument when your civ hasn't even done anything worth celebrating yet

 

[Acken]

By the way does civ6 features the terrible increasing cost pantheon system ?

 

[Nick31]

So if you're trying to get an early pantheon and plan to use the God King card (which gives faith) to do it, how does building a monument first instead of a scout substantially help you reach that goal? You're already researching Code of Laws when the game opens, and by the time the monument is built, isn't Code of Laws already about to be learned? (Depends on hammers available in the city, game speed you're playing at, etc.)

In other words, I'm still not seeing Monument as an optimal 1st build option. And, if I'm right, that's good, because it never made sense to me that you'd start the game building a monument when your civ hasn't even done anything worth celebrating yet

No, Mate, it's about Hammers, i.e. production boosts through Civics. You don't get your first 2 bonuses until you unlock Code of Laws through Culture, so if you want hammers (or God-King) you want the fastest possible, and Monument shaves a few turns off. But more importantly, you want to unlock the Settler production policy, which, as of the initial builds, comes at Early Empire.

Check how long that will take you to culture up to without a Monument. With a Monument, and finding a new continent (which, frankly, should be achievable easily with warrior and after-monument scout), Early empire is next in line and a Monument first build gets that going asap.

If you want to claim some NW spot, or River/Mountain spot, or simply the one frontier river between you and an AI, before back-settling the rest: You want that 50% Settler bonus. And you unlock that through culture. Which takes a Monument .

As for the historical side, there's all kinds of archaeological evidence for early culture sites before agriculture, so that's not an issue. It's a game, anyway, but it's certainly defensible.

 

[Nick31]

By the way does civ6 features the terrible increasing cost pantheon system ?

Almost positive that it does not.

 

[isau]

I think you're dramatically over-estimating the time you'll need to destroy/capture a unit into a builder and getting him back to your capital, and underestimated the power of a 3-pop capital working 3 improved tiles vs. a 2-pop capital working no improved tiles. Time will tell, but not having an improved Capital in that build order will be problematic.

The reason I theorized multiple Eagle Warriors is you are actually declaring war on someone, while still dealing with Barbarians. I think War/Shrine/War/War/War is a reasonable build order and a way to keep the capital from getting flattened. Remember in Civ VI if a Barbarian Scout reaches us it will try to retrieve a raiding party, and since our cities have no way to defend themselves could undo the work of the Builders we're trying to gather. Plus whoever we declared war on could rally and come after as well.

 

[Calouste]

The reason I theorized multiple Eagle Warriors is you are actually declaring war on someone, while still dealing with Barbarians. I think War/Shrine/War/War/War is a reasonable build order and a way to keep the capital from getting flattened. Remember in Civ VI if a Barbarian Scout reaches us it will try to retrieve a raiding party, and since our cities have no way to defend themselves could undo the work of the Builders we're trying to gather. Plus whoever we declared war on could rally and come after as well.

Do you mean Monument instead of Shrine? You can't build a Shrine in Civ6 until you have a Holy Site.

 

[Red Pearl]

@Nick31 Did you know that a scout cost 30 hammers and a monument cost 60 hammers?

 

[Acken]

Almost positive that it does not.

Which means you can easily catch up with a Holy site then. That gives some options.

 

[isau]

Do you mean Monument instead of Shrine? You can't build a Shrine in Civ6 until you have a Holy Site.

Ah yes, that. Sorry, got the terms confused. It should be a Monument, for the culture boost.

 

[Magil]

My inclination now is that some people are actually undervaluing eurekas. I don't think science will be devalued to the point where giving up that many free beakers is irrelevant. I believe that it will always be worth it to prioritize a eureka if it's something that you can accomplish easily, and I feel an early builder is going to be important for those reasons (just because you should be able to get 2~4 boosts from the builder actions alone).

Civ has traditionally been a game where getting your boosts early is vastly more important than getting them later; i.e. the "snowball effect". I think Eurekas and Inspirations are going to be a Very Big Deal (tm). Maybe I'll be wrong, but that's the way I feel right now. Just looking at the tech and culture trees and comparing the amount of free beakers/culture you're getting compared to the tech/culture rate we've seen in various streams seems to support this in my head.

 

[Nick31]

@Nick31 Did you know that a scout cost 30 hammers and a monument cost 60 hammers?

Well, sure, a Monument is more hammers. But the debate isn't whether to build a Monument or not. Or to build a Scout or not . It's about whether the advantages from a Scout several turns earlier outweigh a stronger culture start, and therefore reap the benefits of Civic Policies and advancement.

On some maps, it's clear a scout could be great. But if you send him the wrong way, and there aren't multiple ruins or CS in that direction, or he gets blocked/taken out by a barb camp, then the benefits of those extra few turns aren't great.

Being 5+ turns earlier to a prime 2nd spot on a high difficulty is often a massive game-changing thing. Hence, my theorizing. This is all academic until we play a lot .

Lastly, I'm personally skeptical that they'll keep relics as a possible ruin pop, or at least so heavily strong ones. Getting +4 Faith for Free for stepping into a hut, when generating Plus-4 faith on your own is so difficult, seems bizarrely out of balance. We shall see.

 

[Abraxis]

No more-so than starting next to a natural wonder with higher bonuses. I like the idea of one or two random relics coming from huts. Not everything has to be neutered to neutrality.

 

[isau]

My inclination now is that some people are actually undervaluing eurekas. I don't think science will be devalued to the point where giving up that many free beakers is irrelevant. I believe that it will always be worth it to prioritize a eureka if it's something that you can accomplish easily, and I feel an early builder is going to be important for those reasons (just because you should be able to get 2~4 boosts from the builder actions alone).

Civ has traditionally been a game where getting your boosts early is vastly more important than getting them later; i.e. the "snowball effect". I think Eurekas and Inspirations are going to be a Very Big Deal (tm). Maybe I'll be wrong, but that's the way I feel right now. Just looking at the tech and culture trees and comparing the amount of free beakers/culture you're getting compared to the tech/culture rate we've seen in various streams seems to support this in my head.

I agree with this. What makes Eurekas crazy powerful is they offer straight 50% (or 60% for China) off the base cost of a tech. In literal terms, it translates to being researched in half the time. And unlike most other boosts in the game, it stays a 50% boost if your Science or Culture change.

Part of why I think the Aztecs are in a great position this time around is they can easily unlock most of the Eurekas without veering. The Eagle Warrior contributes to exploration, killing Barbarians, and (by enslaving enemy units) to all of the Builder related stuff too. Of course you don't need all of the unlocks at the same time, they only really matter if they are unlocked when you begin research, so its still unclear how much of an advantage this is.

One other thing this go round is that the Monument, which was already an important building in Civ V (particularly with mods that allowed you to go wider than Vanilla), is now crucial, because tile placement suddenly matters so much more for Districts. I expect we'll be spending a lot of Gold buying tiles this time around, and any tiles we can grab with Culture naturally will be helpful.

 

[tedhebert]

I personally think that everyone is greatly underestimating how annoying the Barbarians are going to be in CIV6...

No one's talking about it, but I think it will be a major influence on what we have to do in the early game, and possibly tip the balance towards having to build military units early

 

[dnoisette]

I personally think that everyone is greatly underestimating how annoying the Barbarians are going to be in CIV6...

No one's talking about it, but I think it will be a major influence on what we have to do in the early game, and possibly tip the balance towards having to build military units early

That is my feeling (and worry) as well, from the gameplay we've had so far.

 

[Sprenk]

I personally think that everyone is greatly underestimating how annoying the Barbarians are going to be in CIV6...

No one's talking about it, but I think it will be a major influence on what we have to do in the early game, and possibly tip the balance towards having to build military units early

Keep in mind that, do to a programming error, the barb spawn rate was WAY too high in those early Let's Plays. So barbs might well be an issue, but you won't be swamped by them in quite that dramatic a way. Whew!

 

[Xur]

I personally think that everyone is greatly underestimating how annoying the Barbarians are going to be in CIV6...

No one's talking about it, but I think it will be a major influence on what we have to do in the early game, and possibly tip the balance towards having to build military units early

Barbarians were also hyped pre-release for civ5. I hightly doubt that they will be much of a problem, when considering Firaxis' preference for rewarding gameplay and not punishing. A lot of the gameplay we have seen has been with buggy barbarians that spawned almost 6 times more than normal. The code that checks to see if barbarians should be spawned were run every player/AI turn and not just during barbarian turns.

If you can kill a scout, I doubt you will see much of them.

 

[Nick31]

So, first caveat: none of us have seen Immortal difficulty yet, so we're all guessing, obviously. And most of our talk on strategy, at least default, should be for Emperor/Immortal levels of difficulty. 6-7 out of 8, if you will. Diety is usually it's own kettle of fish, and below 6 is usually moot. You can do anything and win.

On Barbs, I think all of us were excited and commented to that effect. On the gameplay we've seen, raging Barbs is Essentially default, and it looks like they will be a thorn. But in no way will devs design a Level 7 difficulty where you need to build 3 military units immediately to survive. AI, for one, couldn't handle that.

So, what we're talking about is whether you can get 3 builds done before needing a few extra units. And I think that likely. And if you can wait until build 4 or 5 to build some military, then you can use your policies and rush them out. And then, while thorny, the barbs are no problem to handle.

 

[stealth_nsk]

So, first caveat: none of us have seen Immortal difficulty yet, so we're all guessing, obviously. And most of our talk on strategy, at least default, should be for Emperor/Immortal levels of difficulty. 6-7 out of 8, if you will. Diety is usually it's own kettle of fish, and below 6 is usually moot. You can do anything and win.

In the last religion playthrough Ed played on the 5th level out of 6. We didn't see barbarians there, though as they were cleared by the time of the stream start.