Impressions of version 0.31

[onedreamer]

I really wanted to congratulate with the staff because FFH2 is getting quite polished again after the shift to BtS. I won't go on listing the many positive changes in the last version, but I wanted to comment on some things that still need improvement, and a couple of bugs. In order of importance (3 are my main concerns):

- The AI builds really loads of units. A standard AI empire in a standard size map can easily reach 200 units. This means roughly one thousands units on the map at one time for the AI to move... which results in really slow interturns even on a decent machine, and can easily lead to loss of interest in finishing a game. Large maps are unplayable for me. I know you probably can't do much about it, however regular BtS AI doesn't produce as many units.

- War Weariness should be toned down in my opinion. The background of the mod encourages conflicts between opposing alignements, opposing civs, different religions. Plus the rising AC causes more wars to happen. You should take into consideration that since the AI builds so many units (see point above) wars are likely to last quite long and civs are likely to have many casualties. However, 20-30 turns of war can easily cause 20 unhappy citizens (in developed good civs Empires). So I would either tone down WW or add boni vs WW in buildings and in more Civics.

- Since in FFH2, thanks to easy xp, you can easily get to combat5/drill5, the drill promotion has become really powerful, IMO overpowered. A defending unit with combat/city defense promotions and drill V is almost invincible. I have had such a unit successfully defending against about 30 attacks in one turn, something I had not seen after Civ3



Other observations:

- AI doesn't seem to make much use of mages in my games. I have seen many adepts but I can't recall seeing one mage ever. Maybe it has problems upgrading adepts ? It does however use priests spell well.
- Entangle from Druids is too powerful IMO. A unit has like 5% chances to resist it, if not less, unless it has the magic resistance promotion. In this case, its about 30-50%. (note: I'm not talking of programmed numbers but of empirical results). With the change introduced in version 0.32 (immobile units can't cast spells anymore) this spell will be even more powerful. Practically makes a city untakable, at least from the AI.
- On War Weariness again: I think the WW from Basium's losses is added to the team (hence to his summoner). While Basium doesn't care and will declare war whenever he wants even if he will clearly loose many units, his summoner does care because he doesn't receive the benefits of the Mercurian Gate. I think the summoner should also get these benefits or not suffer from Basium's losses.


Bugs:

- When a unit triggers the withdraw ability while defending, the offending unit's turn is immediatly ended even if it could have moved more.
- Dies Diei does not grant eligibility to Head Councelor to the possessor.

 

[onedreamer]

Oh, I just remembered to mention another major bug:
- in this version the trading bug from v. 3.13 BtS is back (IE the AI will never accept a fair deal if it is the human player to propose it).

 

[xalien]

Drill no matter how high can be easily countered with the Shadow I.

 

[Sureshot]

plus Flanking3 promotion and assassins have first strike immunity

 

[Zechnophobe]

Honestly, I think you have it exactly backwards. Drill is noticeably weaker in this, as it compares to other Promotions. Consider, would you rather have Drill 1, or Combat 1? Combat 1 MUCH more greatly increases combat odds in your favor. For the specialized promo's like City Defense, this is even more noticeable.

The only reason Drill is nice in FFH, is because it is required for Blitz, the single strongest promotion in the game.

 

[XenoSaber]

To comment on the above, in my experience, Scouts that have been upgrade with Drill 1 will survive better in the wilderness than those upgraded with Combat 1.

A note on the OP, the AI builds a lot of adepts, but few mages mostly because (IIRC), the build weight for adepts is quite high, but the build weight for Mages is (was?) significantly lower.

 

[Zechnophobe]

To comment on the above, in my experience, Scouts that have been upgrade with Drill 1 will survive better in the wilderness than those upgraded with Combat 1.

A note on the OP, the AI builds a lot of adepts, but few mages mostly because (IIRC), the build weight for adepts is quite high, but the build weight for Mages is (was?) significantly lower.

Scout with Drill 1 vs Lion (open ground) 53.4%

Scout with Combat 1 vs Lion (open Ground) 73%

Scout with Combat 1 vs Lion (Defending in forest) 76.9%

Scout with Drill 1 vs Lion (Defending in forest) 74%


There's some noticeable jumps here. Note that those with ~20% strength bonus go to 70% plus: This is because the number of combat rounds they need is 1 less than the other unit. So when the scout unit gets that 25% D bonus from forest, it is of far greater weight than an additional 20% (from combat 1) or first strike chance, because either way the unit has to win 4 combats, or lose 6


I really wish that Drill 1 just gave 1 first strike, not a first strike CHANCE. Seems silly.

 

[Gelvan]

i think he was talking about first strikes in cities and of course we can use shadow (if we want to sacrifice a mana node for it) to counter the first strike, still there is the defend city promotion which is in my personal view just overpowered.

the problem with the AI building units in masses only occurs in higher difficultys (above warlord) and with aggressive AI. I think, agressive should only have an effect at diplomacy not number of units. the AI should be building less, but more powerful units, therefore build buildings which grant free xp.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

- War Weariness should be toned down in my opinion. The background of the mod encourages conflicts between opposing alignements, opposing civs, different religions. Plus the rising AC causes more wars to happen. You should take into consideration that since the AI builds so many units (see point above) wars are likely to last quite long and civs are likely to have many casualties. However, 20-30 turns of war can easily cause 20 unhappy citizens (in developed good civs Empires). So I would either tone down WW or add boni vs WW in buildings and in more Civics...

I think the higher the Armageddon counter the less war weariness there should be between opposing alignments.

 

[uberfish]

I'm not sure when this was added, but I noticed despotism now gives -50% WW which can be used as a bandaid solution. I agree WW needs to be rebalanced because the AI produces so many units. Also it would be nice if the WW was scaled down based on the alignments of the warring civs, the further apart the alignments the less WW should be generated. Good is supposed to fight evil in this mod.

 

[WCH]

The AI also needs to learn to build stronger units -- way it's set up, you get attacked by like 50 scouts led by a couple warriors and maybe an adept who doesn't really do much that's useful.

Basically the problem is that they don't really understand the concept of technological objectives... things have different weight, but there should be less weight on the individual techs involved and more on the key ones. Knowledge of the Ether, Bronze Working and Festivals (and one religion of choice) are freaking essential in the earlygame... it's silly for the AI to research less useful things and still be attacking with massive stacks of warriors at turn 150.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Festivals

 

[WCH]

Festivals gives Market, without which I find the economic crunch comes fast and heavy. My approach is generally to get a religion and a decent defender first (either archers or swordmen/axemen), then festivals, then the economic strain is reduced enough that I can actually invest in something like the arcane line. Without a Market in every city, I generally end up with a science rate of like 10%, causing utter stagnation and failure.

Worshiping Kilmorph makes this much less of an issue, of course, but even then it helps, and Kilmorph isn't always the best option. Especially if you're Grigori and can't.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Hm, I neglect markets so much that I didn't even know what tech enabled them.

Do you use them to run merchants, or just for the innate extra gold?

 

[WCH]

The merchants are a nice perk, but it's the straight up gold bonus I'm after. +3 gold/ -1 research works out to +2 gold net... which makes it the same value as Elder Council. When you've got half a dozen small cities that aren't producing a whole lot of money, the straight +2 from those two buildings is huge, and can mean the difference between holding your science rate at 70% and going bankrupt. Carnivals aren't nearly as big a deal, but they're very nice to have on the list of build options thanks to their +1 happiness, which is important for your larger cities that early in the game when happiness is kind of hard to come by.

Even moreso for Grigori, of course, as they won't be getting happiness from religion, or gold from Kilmorph... other civs can do alright without Festivals, but Grigori freaking needs it ASAP, as it's by far the easiest way to produce both gold and happiness.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

Mmmm. Elder councils.... on their own, I wouldn't go out of my way to research a tech just to get them, just like markets. It's just... elder councils are attached to a tech that both grants a great civic and opens up an entire tech branch. To get anywhere on the tech tree I'll need the tech that enables elder councils, so hey, why not build them when I have the chance?

Markets meanwhile are enabled by a junky tech that's one step away from a dead end. I guess that's why I neglect them; I'm not willing to invest those beakers into a tech that provides markets and very little else.

 

[WCH]

How do you deal with early-game economic crash then? Very few buildings provide any gold... got to pay maintenance somehow.

 

[Monkeyfinger]

By prioritizing education. Lots and lots of cottages, and 2XP units to let me build smaller quantities of defenders.

 

[xalien]

Yeah, market gives as much of a net gain as a single hamlet. It creates a bit of illusion of wealth by allowing to keep your tech slider higher, but since it robs a beaker you don't really benefit much from that. Cottages are almost always better, especially for elves.

I usually delay festivals until I have a religion and all early land improvement techs that I can benefit from. Still, on certain maps (like highlands with wildlands option) if you go for hunting and animal husbandry early you can capture all kinds of animals - I've managed to get Grand Managerie in my current game

 

[onedreamer]

Drill no matter how high can be easily countered with the Shadow I.

But the AI doesn't do it. And Shadow Mana can easily be outlawed by members of the Overcouncil. Very few civs start with Shadow Mana and very few will build such a node. You can't really say that the balance for the overpowered combination of Combat 5 / Drill 5 is Shadow Mana.... it must be countered by something as easy as this, or just rebalanced.

plus Flanking3 promotion and assassins have first strike immunity

Not all units can get flanking 3
The AI doesn't promote to flanking 3
The Assassins will not target that defender, even if they will they will die anyways (although they can at least damage it) but to be able to target that unit you must have a huge stack of assassins, and a huge stack of assassins is dead meat.


Btw I am talking of a overpowered element for the human player vs the AI. I can easily defeat any number of attackers with the combination of Combat 5 / Drill 5, and you don't even need to necessarily be in a city. You shouldn't be replying with solutions that a human player would adopt because this is a issue between the human and the AI player.