Improvements & civics rebalancing - again

[Ahwaric]

Recently there were quite big changes to basic economy, especially regarding improvements.
But there is still much to be done, especially regarding civics.
I know I may regret it soon, but I need to ask this as I do not play much and you are the ones that need to feel it is working fine and is balanced.

So, what do you think needs changing.
I assume that farms/quarries/cottages are balanced. I am sure some have other ideas, so please feel free to voice them. As you can see, I can slowly admit I was wrong and adjust things

But the main question is: do other improvements need rebalancing?
How should civics be adjusted to the new situation? I.e. Guardian of nature is not what it used to be before change to elven growth. At least it is not what it used to be for elves - an overpowered civic.

So, feel free to say what you think on the whole situation. Of course, I do not promise
I will add everything.

 

[Ahwaric]

Civics

Government (who is in charge of the country)
Despotism - just one person: absolute monarch, warlord, religious authority
God King - king that is considered living god (see egyptian pharaohs). May overlap a bit despotism (but spiritual mandate here, and theocracy - but that is ruled by priests)
Aristocracy - rule of the few with the most power or money (or both) - I think most hereditary true monarchies fall here
Republic - rule of a bigger part of society, with elections or any other form of collective government (see roman senate). It is not rule of everyone in Medieval/fantasy setting, just the free men withg enogh power or gold - i.e. nobles and city patricians (see Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or Republic of Venice)
Theocracy - the highest member of religious hierarch is the ruler, hereditary or not. No king here, or if he is, he is less important than clergy
Magocracy - rule by the magically gifted
Slumbering coven - rule by the coven of overlord prophets (theocracy perhaps?) (OO)
Shadow council - secret council, with offical ruler just for representation and executing the council orders (see Council of Ten in Republic of Venice) (aristocracy?) (Council of Esus)

Legal - structure of the country
Tribalism - state consist of allied tribes
City states - a confederacy of semi-independent city states (a bit more uniformed than ancient greece)
Vassalage - hierarchy of duchies, counties etc., all responding to the king
Nationhood - country of one nation, unified by common culture etc., biurocratic
Social order - country unified by one idea, executing deep controll on citizens (police state)
Liberty - country of citizens, with quite free speech

Labor - how is labor organized
Barbarism - not really organized on empire scale, different types of labor (some free workers, some slaves etc.)
Slavery - bulk of the working force is enslaved
Serfdom - most working force is bound to specific lord, area or city, limited freedom
Caste System - occupation is determined by caste the person is born into
Guilds - work (especially crafts) is monopolized and regulated by organizations of craftsmen
Glory - crafting is strictly regulated and organized for the glory of the empire (many large, state financed projects) (Scion only, not sure if to keep it)
Arete - craft is art, perfection in work and life (RoK)

Economy - economy...
Decentralization - not regulated, with limited trade
Survival - survival is the key, economy weak and very local
Agrarianism - economy dominated by large manors and food growing, cities are weak and crafts (industry) limited
Military state - strict control of economy for military purposes (see fascist states)
Free trade - freedom of trading and economical activities, with some regulations
Mercantilism - trading limited by government/cities to control production and protect local crafts
Crusade - overlaps military state flavour, probably needs redefinition and moving to religious category
Guardian of nature - protection of natural world, impacts economy & production but gives other bnenefits (FoL)
Sacrifice the weak - fight for survival in society (AV)

Cultural values - the values promoted and most popular within the society
Religion - believes, be it religion or Mechanos anthitheism
Scholarship - science and knowledge
Pacifism - peaciful coexistence
Conquest - military domination and plunder
Wealth - standard of living
Isolation - security or isolation from foreigners
Purity - one country, one mind. If you think different, you have to go/die (order)
Enlightement - trenscendent your mental boundaries (empyrean)

Religion - organization of religions or local cults (redesigned, thanks for ideas Cadaveres!)
Local cult - religion on local scale, not organized
Traditional religion - supporting unique believes of the civilization
Monasticism - monasteries are centers of religious authority, but also science (see Celtic Christianity)
Universalism - religious hierarchy & organizations, world religion spreading (requires state religion)
Crusade - military promoting of the religion, harsh prosecution of other religions (should it be split into two civics of simillar flavour, but one Bannor only with different effects? How should it affect cultist civs?)
Freedom of religion - no state religion, controlling that some religions do not prosecute the other (how should cultists fit here? I do not see scions, illians or mechanos with freedom of religion)

 

[scutarii]

agnostic civilizations are already suffering due to lack of boost from religion (buildings).

In addition there are varios civs for different religions but for agnostics there is very lame "neutrality" till very late tech education unlocks "humanism". Practically forced choice.


Agnostics need something earlier and more colorful. Maybe something what boost from GP area bards for instance but "cripples" priests.Also reduces passive religion spreading ever more...

 

[Humakty]

I agree with scutarii, since you've added lot of content to each religion (priest's spells, civics)

I think feral civs fare a bit too well in early/mid game (patch M). But this is tied to the omnipresence of powerfull animals early on, which inder a lot the other civs.

 

[Kalina]

I thought about civics playing a role of religion for some agnostic civs (Iliians, Scions, maybe Mechanos). After all, those civs aren't agnostic at all - they are simply following different gods then most other civs. A White Hand civic could, for example, block other religions, let you build religion wonders, priests of winter and temples of the hand (I always thought it was weird you could build temples of the hand before Auric found religion using white hand ritual) and recruit religion's heroes. They can also provide some benefits, similiar to those provided by other religion civics.

 

[Valkrionn]

I thought about civics playing a role of religion for some agnostic civs (Iliians, Scions, maybe Mechanos). After all, those civs aren't agnostic at all - they are simply following different gods then most other civs. A White Hand civic could, for example, block other religions, let you build religion wonders, priests of winter and temples of the hand (I always thought it was weird you could build temples of the hand before Auric found religion using white hand ritual) and recruit religion's heroes. They can also provide some benefits, similiar to those provided by other religion civics.

I've actually been planning on adding Cults... Guilds that act like Religions. Don't think you could add many more guilds to Orbis though... So I suppose Civics could work, as long as you have a civic option for each religion like in Orbis.

 

[Ahwaric]

agnostic civilizations are already suffering due to lack of boost from religion (buildings).
Agnostics need something earlier and more colorful. Maybe something what boost from GP area bards for instance but "cripples" priests.Also reduces passive religion spreading ever more...

Agreed. I need to flesh out agnostics more. But as Kale said, the balanicing of FfH is on macro scale. Not everything has to have replacement.
Also, might need even two civics (one for real agnostics, the other for civs following unique religions). Maybe we should get rid of religious civics alogether? It was discussed before, but the topic is still opened.

I think feral civs fare a bit too well in early/mid game (patch M). But this is tied to the omnipresence of powerfull animals early on, which inder a lot the other civs.

I think barbarian has more impact here. Animals only limit exploration, not expansion. Barbarians do.

I thought about civics playing a role of religion for some agnostic civs (Iliians, Scions, maybe Mechanos). After all, those civs aren't agnostic at all - they are simply following different gods then most other civs.

I do not think civ specific religions should be added to game. Thay are civ specific, so are part of that civilization uniquiness.
The Hand - who would follow it? I think only Illians (who already do) and Doviello. FoL on the other hand, is very generic religion. It is very different for Ljosalfar, Doviello and Calabim. Same with Order - Order Elohim behave diferently than order Calabim.
There are not many combinations that do not work flavourwise, compared to very few that work for the hand. Or Scions - I think there is more probablity for civs to adopt cult of the dragon as state religion than veneration of a ruler of a foreign country...
The thing in Valkrionn's adaptation of mechanos I dislike the most (no offense ) is Ordo Mechanarum. I do not think dwarves, be it Khazad or Luirchuip, would ever adopt it. Well, Luirchuip are gnomes so maybe. But Khazad, as a nation - never, most of them are too much down to earth for such things. Ordo Ljoslafar I do not even dare to imagine

I've actually been planning on adding Cults... Guilds that act like Religions. Don't think you could add many more guilds to Orbis though... So I suppose Civics could work, as long as you have a civic option for each religion like in Orbis.

I disagree here, too. Religions, guilds & civics were designed with distinct purpose in mind and serve best that purpose. That is why Cult of the Dragon works much better as a religion than as guild. If we add civic for The Hand that forbids adopting another religion, how it is different form a religion? Apart from trouble of setting relations etc.

I think Opera did the right thing here - unique cult makes civs get the same penalties to relations as if the agnostics were actually following different religion.
But it might be good to split agnostics into cultists (Illians, Scions) and agnostics proper (Grigori, Dao). Not sure where to put Mechanos. Also, agnostic term does not fit FfH setting at all.

 

[Valkrionn]

I think you misunderstood me: These 'cults' I have in mind are just minor effects. Like moving the Emperor's Claim (2 ) from a building to a guild. Just shows that there IS a religion there.

And yes, it will use the unique cult system Opera made... Although it needs to be made into an Int, rather than a Bool. Atm, any cult will view other cults as the same.

 

[Ahwaric]

I think you misunderstood me: These 'cults' I have in mind are just minor effects. Like moving the Emperor's Claim (2 ) from a building to a guild. Just shows that there IS a religion there.

And yes, it will use the unique cult system Opera made... Although it needs to be made into an Int, rather than a Bool. Atm, any cult will view other cults as the same.

I see... Not much change from mechanics side, but definetly better for display (the list of buildings can be quite long). But with the number of guilds in Orbis, I still don't think it could work...

Agreed on unique cult, we do not like illians and scions to like each other, do we ?

 

[Valkrionn]

I do not think civ specific religions should be added to game. Thay are civ specific, so are part of that civilization uniquiness.
The Hand - who would follow it? I think only Illians (who already do) and Doviello. FoL on the other hand, is very generic religion. It is very different for Ljosalfar, Doviello and Calabim. Same with Order - Order Elohim behave diferently than order Calabim.
There are not many combinations that do not work flavourwise, compared to very few that work for the hand. Or Scions - I think there is more probablity for civs to adopt cult of the dragon as state religion than veneration of a ruler of a foreign country...
The thing in Valkrionn's adaptation of mechanos I dislike the most (no offense ) is Ordo Mechanarum. I do not think dwarves, be it Khazad or Luirchuip, would ever adopt it. Well, Luirchuip are gnomes so maybe. But Khazad, as a nation - never, most of them are too much down to earth for such things. Ordo Ljoslafar I do not even dare to imagine

Didn't read the whole post, or this would've been in my last one.

White Hand is the last religion I plan on adding... Mostly because it can use a mechanic that I find lacking. Namely, evil religion that does NOT increase the AC. It's a religion of Stasis... It's also the last resort when Hell is around the corner. Read KC's "Paradise" story to get a better idea of what I mean.

Honestly, the Ordo Machinarum came about because I had already had plans for a Steampunk civ.... Started modding with that goal in mind, only to find you beat me to it. Didn't think there was room for two, so I merged yours in and adapted it a bit... Only really drastic thing was, like you said, the religion.

......Originally, my plan was for a group of steampunkish gnomes.....

 

[Valkrionn]

I see... Not much change from mechanics side, but definetly better for display (the list of buildings can be quite long). But with the number of guilds in Orbis, I still don't think it could work...

Agreed on unique cult, we do not like illians and scions to like each other, do we ?

Yeah, my only complaint for them is that you can't easily SEE they have a religion. You just see 'Oh, agnostic. No religion for them, so I don't want to play them', while they actually have a full-fledged private religion. Far fewer guilds in RifE, so I can afford the extra I think.

And yeah, really needs that change.

 

[Master_Hugian]

I had a close look at improvements and here is what I think

Farm: Well balanced and for me at least Agrarianism is not a sure bet (the -20% hurt and so it competes with Survival for early economy civic)

Quarry: Only issue is the +1 commerce from Way of the Earthmother can't be obtained by agonistic civilizations.

Town:Like the way as it stands but I believe it takes a bit to long to grow into Enclaves (a painful 60 turn wait once it has become a town)

Forester's Lodge: Helps for cities without fresh water, gives you a choice in the beginning for going farm route for more food or lodges for food and hammers. I love the early game choice. The extra commerce can't be obtained by agonistic civs

Aul: I have been quite unsure about this, but can definity see how it can be useful, but I wish there was a third early economic civic to compete with Lodges and Farms for Auls.

Will look at the mid game improvements in more detail later.

 

[Bootsiuv]

Farms are extremely weak in the early game IMO. Forester's lodge is almost always a superior choice, with cottages on the flatlands/floodplains. Food resources are also somewhat overpowered. I can often support 30+ pop cities with a few deer, some corn, and arseloads of forester's lodges. I also gain the and the forests provide.

+2 would make me consider running a more farm-oriented economy. As it stands now, I almost always use a cottage economy with my capital running specialists for the the occasional gp.

Alternatively, you could make the forester's lodge available at a later tech, such as tracking. You could balance this by adding the FoL +1 to the standard improvement. The FoL bonus could then be +1 .

It's a minor quibble, I just noticed that I never build non-resource farms anymore (and agrarianism -20% doesn't do much to motivate me into building them, but it's far more balanced than the base agrarianism).

 

[Opera]

I think Opera did the right thing here - unique cult makes civs get the same penalties to relations as if the agnostics were actually following different religion.
But it might be good to split agnostics into cultists (Illians, Scions) and agnostics proper (Grigori, Dao). Not sure where to put Mechanos. Also, agnostic term does not fit FfH setting at all.

They already are in LENA. Illians and Scions and cultists, Grigori are agnostics (maybe more antitheists but not actively harassing theists) and Mechanos are intolerants as in they gave penalties to people following any religion.

 

[Master_Hugian]

Early Game (Source of food)

Farm: +1 :Food:, requires fresh water
Forester's Lodge: +1 :Food:, +1 :Hammers: (from keeping forest), requires forest

With Civic
Farm: +2 :Food:, -20% (bonus - +1 from plantations)
Forester's Lodge: +1 :Food:, +2 :Hammers:, -10% , -20% :gpp: (bonus - +1 from camps)

With Civic and religion (for forester's lodge)

Farm: +2 :Food:, -20% (bonus - +1 from plantations)
Forester's Lodge (Ancient Forest): +2 :Food:, +2 :Hammers:, +1 :Commerce:, -10% , -20% :gpp: (bonus - +1 from camps)

Late Game (Without Civics)
Farm: +2 :Food:, +1 :Commerce:
Forester's Lodge: +1 :Food:, +2 :Hammer:, +1 :Commerce:

Late Game (With Civics)
Farm: +3 :Food:, +1 :Commerce: + penalties
Forester's Lodge: +1 :Food:, +3 :Hammer:, +1 :Commerce: + penalties

Late Game (With Civics and Religion)
Farm: +3 :Food:, +1 :Commerce: + penalties
Forester's Lodge: +2 :Food:, +3 :Hammer:, +1 :Commerce: + penalties

Verdict: Forester's Lodge pulls ahead only because of the extra hammer forester's lodge provides, unless you go for Fellowship of the Leaves for an extra food from forests, it can only ever provide an extra 1 food per tile, which requires you to have another food resource or flood plains in the work radius to have any proper growth, thus forester's lodge is not to suited for a specialist economy.

Remember the extra food from farms means you can work more 'infertile' tiles such as plains and hills which have an extra hammer, also you will be able to support quarries. But without any civics, early game before sanitation, forester's lodges are better as they keep the +1 from forester's lodge.

One way to fix this would have the forester's lodge grant +1 :Hammers: and +1 from survival, same potensial but you need the civic to rely on it for food. Problem with this is it becomes the same production as quarries then, complicated.

 

[Ahwaric]

You should remeber one thing - forester's lodge needs forest. Which has to be there or be planted.
And I ma fine if early cities live on hunting and few food resources. But I want farming be the best way to gain food in late game. Unless you are running FoL, in that case it should be ok to have lot of forests.
But I might cut the bonuses forester's get a bit. Suggestions?

 

[Luckmann]

More of an annoyance on my part rather than a tangible balance issue are the religious civics. They're all (almost) religion-exclusive, they're all sorted under the same header (Religion) and they appear more like a part of each religion than an interesting game mechanic.

For me, the religious civics (defined here as "each civic exclusive to a religion", not "all civics under "Religion"") should represent an overreaching theme of a certain religion ("Arete" in Labour (RoK), for example) while the Religion civics ("all civics under "Religion"") should represent your civilizations overall disposition towards religion.

As of now, the Religion civics could've just aswell been folded into the religions themselves, and look like tacked-on workarounds.

Also, the civics overall (not just religious) also feel like they're suffering from "Moar". Almost every civic is defined in minutia, with both big and small benefits rather than really defined roles. Maybe cutting down and streamlining them somewhat instead of having every civic having a whole multitude of minor effects could be a good idea.

Sounded a bit harsher than I meant it to, but that's my 5 cents on civics.

Edit: Hey, Ahwaric, I never noticed you were from Kraków. I got lost there once and a friend woke up in a church for Sunday service. Good times.

 

[Bootsiuv]

You should remeber one thing - forester's lodge needs forest. Which has to be there or be planted.
And I ma fine if early cities live on hunting and few food resources. But I want farming be the best way to gain food in late game. Unless you are running FoL, in that case it should be ok to have lot of forests.
But I might cut the bonuses forester's get a bit. Suggestions?

A good point about the requirement of forests, but forests seem overly abundant in the early game, at least on the Erebus mapscript, which is what I almost always play.

As far as balancing the lodge, putting it at a later tech might be interesting.

If the lodge was available at tracking, but provided the FoL bonus of +1 in addition to the +1 , I would have to think long and hard about cutting down my forests to plant farms in the early game. Raising the base of farms from +1 to +2 would find me even more torn.

Game situations that create tough choices are favorable to the no brainer decisions IMO.

Would +2 overpower farms in the early game? That's certainly a possibility but one that could be further discussed if the idea intrigues you.

 

[tokala]

Overall the balancing of yields and the arrangement of the early worker techs looks really well thought through for me. Two minor suggestions:
- maybe allow for pastures on any non-forest temperate tile for 1 food, gaining 1 commerce with trading and a chance to discover appropriate food resources. This makes non-forest, non-water tiles at least workable early on.
- Mother Lode gives 25 Gold per Quarry improvement. Description still says "per Mine" improveement. Should it better be for both?

+2 food early on would lead to the supercharged city development presently seen in RifE, especially with the abundance of health and happy resources in Orbis.

 

[Valkrionn]

More of an annoyance on my part rather than a tangible balance issue are the religious civics. They're all (almost) religion-exclusive, they're all sorted under the same header (Religion) and they appear more like a part of each religion than an interesting game mechanic.

For me, the religious civics (defined here as "each civic exclusive to a religion", not "all civics under "Religion"") should represent an overreaching theme of a certain religion ("Arete" in Labour (RoK), for example) while the Religion civics ("all civics under "Religion"") should represent your civilizations overall disposition towards religion.

As of now, the Religion civics could've just aswell been folded into the religions themselves, and look like tacked-on workarounds.

Also, the civics overall (not just religious) also feel like they're suffering from "Moar". Almost every civic is defined in minutia, with both big and small benefits rather than really defined roles. Maybe cutting down and streamlining them somewhat instead of having every civic having a whole multitude of minor effects could be a good idea.

Sounded a bit harsher than I meant it to, but that's my 5 cents on civics.

Edit: Hey, Ahwaric, I never noticed you were from Kraków. I got lost there once and a friend woke up in a church for Sunday service. Good times.

To be honest with you, I've been intending for a while to scrap the current civics and start fresh, keeping each to actual, well-defined roles instead of blobby like the civic groups are now.