Improvements & civics rebalancing - again

[Fluesterwitz]

The issue might be the drawn out starting phase, waiting 30 or so turns till your second scout is ready due to reduced production, after the first one died on turn 4, may not the most enjoyable time spent in Erebus.

 

[civ_king]

The issue might be the drawn out starting phase, waiting 30 or so turns till your second scout is ready due to reduced production, after the first one died on turn 4, may not the most enjoyable time spent in Erebus.

"LOSING IS FUN" -Dwarf Fortress

 

[Monkeyfinger]

"DWARF FORTRESS IS CRAP" -Gamers with taste

 

[Ahwaric]

What would happen if all the base yields from tiles were removed? Say, if everything, even forests and hills, produced nothing, like deserts do. Innate river commerce could also be removed.

So you suggest that all terrains being equal? And only allow different improvements?
There would be problems, as some improvements require base yield of a tile and it allows really nice fine tuning.
I think it would take a lot of diversity from the game? I think it would be kind of boring.
Also, I do not think that is right flavour-wise. There is a difference in foraging in temperate areas compared to deserts or polar climate. A huge difference - and that is reflected in base yields of terrains.

Ok, now that patch O/P is out, I will let you test how improvements work now - and prepare for another round of balancing

Right now though, I think mostly of civics.
I think we should use the model in the second post of this thread as a base, and discuss it.

So, what doyou think should be changed?
Which civics should be removed?
What should be bonuses of the new religious civics?
Also, please vote in the poll that will be avaliable soon.

 

[Alasyre]

I posted this in the questions and requests thread, but this seems like the correct thread for it. It's not really an issue of balance, buuuut...

"This is a tad bigger than a 'small request,' but I'll ask anyway.

I like how Orbis gives the player a chance to discover resources if a plot is upgraded. What's odd to me, however, is that when a farm is built, there is a chance of discovering plantation resources. If one chooses to take advantage of those resources, they build a plantation and thus lose the food bonus from the farm.

My suggestion is this: allow players to build plantations on plots without plantation-based resources, which would then have a chance of discovering such resources, while farms retain the chance of discovering their resources. Plantations would ideally grant mostly commerce and a small amount of food, while farms would remain largely unchanged.

If a player wants less money and more food, he or she will build food; if the player wants commerce, then he or she will build plantations.

Too much?"

 

[Ahwaric]

I think it is fine as it is.
Flavourwise, it is fine - you plant some crops and you might find one that is great, but works better in plantation type of cultivation.
Balancewise, it is good too - first, most plantation resources are not that great, especially if you already have one. Grains are simply great. Making farms only able to discover greains will produce too much of these I think.
If you really need that food from farms, no one is forcing you to upgrade plantation resource...

 

[Valkrionn]

Something you may or may not be interested in, related to improvements...

Currently working on allowing promotions to add BuildOrders to a unit (Testing now, still need to add display code but that can come later). Two reasons for this:

1. Get rid of most of the worker UU's that have been cropping up. Promotions won't be able to REMOVE builds, so you'll still need some, but you can easily add special builds.
2. Make the worker xp system more rewarding; For example, allow a worker that specializes in defensive promotions to take a 'Fortification Specialist' promotion allowing him to build a Castle, rather than Fort (Or whatever the second level is called in Orbis, think you renamed them).

So... What do you think? If you're interested, there's a Wave up about the design and I'm more than willing to share the code with you. May be a while for the next RifE version, so if it's not requested it might be some time before you can get the code otherwise.

 

[arkham4269]

I think it is fine as it is.
Flavourwise, it is fine - you plant some crops and you might find one that is great, but works better in plantation type of cultivation.
Balancewise, it is good too - first, most plantation resources are not that great, especially if you already have one. Grains are simply great. Making farms only able to discover greains will produce too much of these I think.
If you really need that food from farms, no one is forcing you to upgrade plantation resource...

I would think this system would help out the Scion since maybe I'm not understanding them correctly, but other than gold, why create farms at all other than to hope that a specialty bonus is created later? Otherwise it would seem better to have a generating improvement like a cottage instead.

 

[Yrmmrag]

Make the worker xp system more rewarding; For example, allow a worker that specializes in defensive promotions to take a 'Fortification Specialist' promotion allowing him to build a Castle, rather than Fort (Or whatever the second level is called in Orbis, think you renamed them).

nice idea

i would also suggest to make improvemnts cost you something like

road 5
farm/camp 10
cottage 15
mine/quarry 25
fort 50

would slow down start a bit i guess

defense promotion -> defense specialist(can build 2.tier fort for same amount or fort with a price discount)
build promotion -> builder specialist (can cast spell that give +1 prod while in city)


so what you think?

 

[Valkrionn]

Something you may or may not be interested in, related to improvements...

Currently working on allowing promotions to add BuildOrders to a unit (Testing now, still need to add display code but that can come later). Two reasons for this:

1. Get rid of most of the worker UU's that have been cropping up. Promotions won't be able to REMOVE builds, so you'll still need some, but you can easily add special builds.
2. Make the worker xp system more rewarding; For example, allow a worker that specializes in defensive promotions to take a 'Fortification Specialist' promotion allowing him to build a Castle, rather than Fort (Or whatever the second level is called in Orbis, think you renamed them).

So... What do you think? If you're interested, there's a Wave up about the design and I'm more than willing to share the code with you. May be a while for the next RifE version, so if it's not requested it might be some time before you can get the code otherwise.

To quote myself, I've been working on allowing promotions to add build orders.

And, aside from the display which I haven't added yet, it's working perfectly.

I'll be posting the code for it once the display is done (Only affects CvInfos, CvUnit, and CvGameText), so feel free to steal it.

Edit: Screenshots and code here. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8801841#post8801841

 

[Kalina]

It's certainly nice, but wouldn't it increase micromanaging ? Having to spend worker XP is already annoying (though you can turn it off), but having to think while spending worker xp is too much to bear for me ;> With specialised workers, certian task should be given to certain workers, so late game turns would be even longer then now. And I don't think AI would be able to use them efficently, so it's another advantage over computer players.
Of course, I can simply play with no worker xp

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, it's useful even if you don't want the workerxp aspect. Or does Orbis not have civilization-specific improvements?

I know in RifE, it's rather annoying when you capture a worker and it's useless as it can't build the correct improvements... This would fix that.

Adding a <PromotionCannotBuilds> tag, to block build orders... Testing it now.

 

[arkham4269]

It's certainly nice, but wouldn't it increase micromanaging ? Having to spend worker XP is already annoying (though you can turn it off)

I'm not going to read too much into the above, but to me, worker's XP is more important than combat XP since it directly affects how fast and how well I can build my infrastructure. I'll kick the cr*p out of any AI better with a well built infrastructure that gives me the money and mobility.

Plus I just love it when some marauding unit gets through and makes a beeline toward a worker and ends up dead because I've given it defensive bonuses. That makes my day every time!

Yes it may seem tedious to some, but a lot of people said the same thing about Alpha Centauri's unit creation system...and there where plenty of gamers (like me) that loved it.

Personally I wish you could eventually upgrade your worker into something like a sapper that would allow them to get more of the combat promotions but still could only defend. These sappers could perhaps (with gold) create battering ram promotions for units who haven't gotten to the high of XP level yet as well as perhaps a promotion that would allow them to give a defensive bonus if they are in a stack to represent they have built a sort of "Roman Encampment" for the group. Perhaps these sappers could also have away to 'bombard' city walls to show them tunneling under the walls. Again they could only 'attack' the walls and not any unit directly.

 

[Kalina]

Actually, it's useful even if you don't want the workerxp aspect. Or does Orbis not have civilization-specific improvements?

I know in RifE, it's rather annoying when you capture a worker and it's useless as it can't build the correct improvements... This would fix that.

Adding a <PromotionCannotBuilds> tag, to block build orders... Testing it now.

Oh, I didn't think about this Right now, only Mazatl trails (and upgradeable ones like pirate ports, enclaves and aduars) but civ-specific improvments sound very interesting

 

[Valkrionn]

We've got several more... Trails, Caravan Routes (malakim route), Bedouin Sit (malakim again), Dwarven Mines, D'teshi improvements, so on. More important in RifE.

Edit: Tag is completely done. You can specify what improvements can/cannot be built entirely via promotion, it shouldn't be cpu-intensive as it only performs a loop if the unit has a promotion that would require it, and it displays nicely. I'm happy with it.

 

[arkham4269]

In regard to the Tlacatl (as they will be called) I have noticed that as an AI player they always seem to do so much better than other factions. I've never had a game where they don't end up in the top three and usually are on top by a wide margin. They seem to go through the tech tree at blinding speed, having Frigates when most races are barely at a galleass. Plus attacking them is a stone-cold byotch since they tend to be invisible in their jungle, their blow-dart lizards poison your troops and with their bonuses in jungle, their ranger routinely kills units that if I tried it with my rangers, they wouldn't make it past the defensive strike.

EDIT: Well it's nice to see that some of what I think is wrong w/the Tlacatl is going to be changed per Ahwaric!

Which reminds me, why is it that the Khazad spam horsemen? I'm playing a game as Malakim Decius (good) and Vita gets all belligerent on me and take my one city near him that I took over culturally from the barbarians. While I haven't been in a position to fight back, the only three other units I've seen have been the UU RoK unit (whose name escapes me), triremes and their horsemen. It wasn't till very, very late in the game I even saw any slingers or stonewardens? Funny how the Civlopedia calls the boar-rider the worst cav unit in the game yet the AI loves them. I've found them to generally be a lot tougher than my own horseman...but then again I've always noticed that it seems the AI's horsemen units are tougher than my own. Not sure why.

 

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