Increasing production in a city without hills?

[Duraska]

Hello everyone!

I would consider myself to be medium-low when it comes to skill in Civ 4. I've just started weening myself off of the auto-manage settings for cities, and I'm starting to get a handle on specializing my cities for different things.

Here's my latest game. Noble difficulty, fractal, on a normal size world. I got Elizabeth at random, and was delighted to see my starting city full of floodplains!

It's 1010 AD, and I'm doing well in research, my economy is going pretty well, and diplomatically all but two of the Civs I've encountered are "pleased" (and share my religion). We're on a large continent, and I assume there are other civs out there that none of us have met.

I really like London, it's a great research and specialist city, but it has no hills and few forests. It only generates 2 per turn!!

How can I increase production in this city (without using slavery)?

[I've attached a screenshot of my city screen]

I know that there are several civics that can help, bureaucracy and universal suffrage come to mind, but I haven't the technologies required for them. I also cannot produce engineers at this time.

Any advice? It takes like 20 some turns just to build a missionary!!

Thank you very much for your insight, Lords and Ladies of Civilzation! I bow before your knowledge!

 

[Bacon II]

You could:

*choose to work some of that forests (2F1H),
*chop some trees to get the buildings you really need up
*whip the few needed structures
*make workshops(when you got the techs)

But the real q, do you really need more hammers?
Have you specialised your cities enough? (there is alot of those threads around, short version: not all cities need to produce, have some other town toss out those warunits, and let some towns generate the gold or science, or GPP)

 

[jerVL/kg]

That's an awesome science city, except for those plains. Did you move the settler? It would have been better to place it 1 tile east, so you could work the gold, oasis & extra flood plain, with a plains hill & forest for production. Nothing you can do about it now, though.

If you build a forge & assign an engineer specialist, you'll have 4 base hammers + 25% from the forge (5 total.) Running Bureaucracy will add another 50% hammers & commerce. Universal Suffrage will help, but you're a long way from that. You can also farm or cottage the plains tiles, or work the forests instead of running specialists.

That's about it as far as your options go -- it's the nature of science/commerce cities to be low on hammers. Like it or not, you'll have to to really get infrastructure in there...that's what slavery is for, use it!!

 

[DaveMcW]

Build towns on every tile, then switch to Universal Suffrage.

 

[shadow2k]

Slavery is your friend.

Cottage plains tiles and work those. One hammer each, no worse than building an expensive temple you didn't need just to run a Priest. Which brings up what you're actually doing with your two measly hammers per turn...

Why is there a monument in your capital? I really hope you've still got an active Stonehenge in another city, because there's no reason your capital needs one. Same for the theatre, you don't need the happiness, I doubt you need that culture, and you aren't running artists. That courthouse that cost you quite a few hammers (and many turns) is saving you a whopping one gold per turn...your capital doesn't need one, at least not that early. You've got a barracks there, but I can't see why you'd want one in such a hammer poor city unless you're whipping troops. And the temple of course...again, don't need the happiness, and there's better ways of getting one hammer than running a Priest...unless you built Angkor Wat somewhere, or just really want a Prophet.

It looks to me like your biggest problem isn't the lack of hammers (although that is an issue), it's what you're using them on. Where's your aqueduct while you're wasting 3 food per turn being unhealthy? Think about what your city really needs before deciding on what to build. In a city making so few hammers, it needs to be building the things it really needs (AQUEDUCT), not missionaries for other cities.

 

[Viperace]

I faced similar situation with my capital in my previous game. The deal is to build Workshop on those plain.
each tile give u 3H, later 4H, finally with state proprety 1F4H

 

[shadow2k]

I faced similar situation with my capital in my previous game. The deal is to build Workshop on those plain.
each tile give u 3H, later 4H, finally with state proprety 1F4H

Judging by what he's researching, a Workshop on plains will give him a 0/2/0 tile until Guilds.

 

[svv]

What you're researching will also let you build a forge, which means he can appoint an engineer specialistm, who will give you two hammers (in addition to the hammer multiplier and happiness bonus the forge give you).

If you build Angkor Wat, each of your priest specialists will also give you two hammers. Otherwise, it's just one hammer, which is still ok.

When you get civil service, and assuming you're good on happiness, you can farm those plains tiles. Each will then support themselves, plus give you a hammer each.

In the meantime, just keep using the whip. Use it as soon as the penalty from the last whip goes away. Try to whip something big, killing 3 or 4 pop, because just killing 1 or 2 your pop will probably build up again before you can whip again without stacking the penalties. Actually, here some stacking of the penalties might be ok, because your happiness is way ahead of your health.

 

[cabert]

it's been said already but I feel the need to repeat it loudly :
YOU DON'T NEED MORE HAMMERS.
I'd switch away the priest for one more scientist, and that's it.

You're researching MC in 1000AD+, and that not good.
You need to research more before anything else.
You have enough forests to chop for the university you're going to want.
If you don't use slavery in this city, you won't get enough hammers to make up for the lost commerce.

edit : one more thing
You don't need barracks, walls and what nots in a city producing 2 hammers

 

[Preston85]

I always have a hard time deciding on Civil Service and use loads of scientist specialists or just cottage spam and Slavery so I can whip markets/grocers ect.

I guess early on there arn't many + science buildings after Library before University while theres lots of + commerce buildings so early on specialists would add a lot of pure science, even when running low % tax....

I really just guess, but go with Slavery as it usually helps more cities. If I get a lot of good commerce cities with pleanty of food sources then I go with Civil Service and do a pathetic attempt at a specialist economy hehe.

I just find it easier to use slavery tbh, i'm not a good micromanager so its easy to just hit the whip button.

 

[ArneHD]

You could beeline replacable parts and build lumbermlls, but if you have other cities with hills/forest you could focus your production on them and give London over to commerce.

 

[Duraska]

Hi everyone!

Sorry for not replying sooner. Great advice all around. I recently switched over to Bureaucracy, which heavily boosted my hammers (I also removed some scientists and worked some of the grounds with hammers and lumbermilled a forest tile). So now my capital has a good amount of hammers 10+ as well as still being a research city (oddly enough, my industrial-focused city, which is coastal, has now also become tied as a good research city).

As I said before, I don't even consider myself to have even a "moderate" skill level. I'm still learning new stuff every game, and frankly, I don't know how you guys can play and remember all this stuff without your heads exploding! When the map starts getting crowded and I start having like 20 resources and 5 or 6 cities, I start to loose my grip on what I'm doing. I'm sure that will come in time. Right now I still feel very overwelmed.

Let me try and address some specific things that people have pointed out. Please let me know if my strategies are unsound.

That's an awesome science city, except for those plains. Did you move the settler? It would have been better to place it 1 tile east, so you could work the gold, oasis & extra flood plain, with a plains hill & forest for production. Nothing you can do about it now, though.

If you build a forge & assign an engineer specialist, you'll have 4 base hammers + 25% from the forge (5 total.) Running Bureaucracy will add another 50% hammers & commerce. Universal Suffrage will help, but you're a long way from that. You can also farm or cottage the plains tiles, or work the forests instead of running specialists.

That's about it as far as your options go -- it's the nature of science/commerce cities to be low on hammers. Like it or not, you'll have to to really get infrastructure in there...that's what slavery is for, use it!!

I did not move my original settler, and I couldn't see the gold before I chose to settle (my first turn). All in all, it's not a disaster because I culturally flipped one of Alexander's cities that currently is close to that gold and can directly use it.

I'm having great success at culturally flipping cities this game. I've taken 3 of Alexander's (kept two, disbanded one) and one of Mehmed's)

Slavery is your friend.

Cottage plains tiles and work those. One hammer each, no worse than building an expensive temple you didn't need just to run a Priest. Which brings up what you're actually doing with your two measly hammers per turn...

Why is there a monument in your capital? I really hope you've still got an active Stonehenge in another city, because there's no reason your capital needs one. Same for the theatre, you don't need the happiness, I doubt you need that culture, and you aren't running artists. That courthouse that cost you quite a few hammers (and many turns) is saving you a whopping one gold per turn...your capital doesn't need one, at least not that early. You've got a barracks there, but I can't see why you'd want one in such a hammer poor city unless you're whipping troops. And the temple of course...again, don't need the happiness, and there's better ways of getting one hammer than running a Priest...unless you built Angkor Wat somewhere, or just really want a Prophet.

It looks to me like your biggest problem isn't the lack of hammers (although that is an issue), it's what you're using them on. Where's your aqueduct while you're wasting 3 food per turn being unhealthy? Think about what your city really needs before deciding on what to build. In a city making so few hammers, it needs to be building the things it really needs (AQUEDUCT), not missionaries for other cities.

I moved away from slavery so that I could take feudalism for the specialists. Besides this city, I don't really have a need to whip out buildings/units, but I might reconsider. Specialists have paid off because I've already had 3 great artists, a great scientist, and a great prophet (gotta love Philosophical leaders).

I do have Stonehenge in another city. I built it because I wanted to have it (Celts weren't in the game, so England should have it!) I know that's a silly reason, but it did help out with some early culture expansion in my cities.

Courthouse is an error on my part. I can see that now. I will be more mindful of that in future games. I built the barracks because Alexander started as a very close neighbor, and I was weary of any sudden attacks he might launch. Temple was to get enough temples to build the religious building that adds +50% culture to a city. I now (having played some more after my original post) have an aquaduct in the city. Good catch on that one!

it's been said already but I feel the need to repeat it loudly :
YOU DON'T NEED MORE HAMMERS.
I'd switch away the priest for one more scientist, and that's it.

You're researching MC in 1000AD+, and that not good.
You need to research more before anything else.
You have enough forests to chop for the university you're going to want.
If you don't use slavery in this city, you won't get enough hammers to make up for the lost commerce.

edit : one more thing
You don't need barracks, walls and what nots in a city producing 2 hammers

Walls were there to get the castle for the +1 trade route. The reason I'm reasearching metal casting is for guilds (knights) to defend my northern cities against Mehmed and Stalin. No one would trade it to me (or no one had it). I was far above metal casting at the point of the screenshot. I was just filling in a pre-requisite at that time. Right now (currently in the game) I have Redcoats at about 1300 AD, so that's not too bad from a technology standpoint. Right?


Thank you all for your advice. Keep it coming! I need all the different viewpoints I can get. I'm thinking of going for a space victory this game, or possibly a cultural, though I don't know if it's too late to try for that.

How long do you guys keep slavery? I usually drop it around this point in the game to start focusing less on infrastructure and more on city size / economy. Is that a bad idea?

Thanks again!

 

[lilnev]

I would put about a dozen more cottages around that city. The only buildings it wants at this point are for health; later university/observatory when they become available. So you don't need hammers. Alternatively, if it's going to be your GP farm (enough food for it, but you won't be getting your money's worth from Bureaucracy), then build (chop) the National Epic. But if you've got another city that could fill that role, you should surround this one with cottages.

peace,
lilnev

 

[HiroHito]

cottages so this city can benefit the rest of your empire, not just itself.

 

[jerVL/kg]

As I said before, I don't even consider myself to have even a "moderate" skill level. I'm still learning new stuff every game, and frankly, I don't know how you guys can play and remember all this stuff without your heads exploding!

What level are you playing at? It seems like you're doing well, all things considered (and yes, it's a lot to absorb.)

I did not move my original settler, and I couldn't see the gold before I chose to settle (my first turn)....I'm having great success at culturally flipping cities this game. I've taken 3 of Alexander's (kept two, disbanded one) and one of Mehmed's)

That's why you should move your scout around first to see if there's anything useful in the neighborhood -- or, if you're so inclined, make a save, settle in place, and reload if you see a better spot. Oh yeah, culture flipping cities is .

I moved away from slavery so that I could take feudalism for the specialists.

Feudalism doesn't give you specialists. I assume you mean Caste System, which you're apparently running, and that comes with Code of Laws. It's normally better to build farms instead of cottages when running specialists, although that's pretty advanced -- read the strategy articles or search for "specialist economy" for more info.

How long do you guys keep slavery? I usually drop it around this point in the game to start focusing less on infrastructure and more on city size / economy. Is that a bad idea?

There are a few points in the game when Serfdom is good, typically when you discover a tech that gives you LOTS of new tile improvements at once (Civil Service, Replaceable Parts, Railroad) but most of the time, running slavery or caste is better. Indeed, if you need to run Serfdom, it's a sign you're not building enough workers.

 

[Duraska]

What level are you playing at? It seems like you're doing well, all things considered (and yes, it's a lot to absorb.)

I play on noble difficulty. I win a little more often than I lose, on average (but I often consider it a sloppy win).

That's why you should move your scout around first to see if there's anything useful in the neighborhood -- or, if you're so inclined, make a save, settle in place, and reload if you see a better spot. Oh yeah, culture flipping cities is .

Yeah, the save/reload thing isn't really my style, and I started with a warrior and no surrounding mountains to give me a clear view. I had a goody hut on the map about 3 squares NW of my starting settler, so I chose to move my warrior in that direction -- thus never seeing the gold.

Feudalism doesn't give you specialists. I assume you mean Caste System, which you're apparently running, and that comes with Code of Laws. It's normally better to build farms instead of cottages when running specialists, although that's pretty advanced -- read the strategy articles or search for "specialist economy" for more info.

Sorry, yeah. I meant Caste System. I guess I chose specialists for the GP points, but again, I'm a bit random still when it comes to strategy in this game. I'll be sure to read those strategies when I get the time.

There are a few points in the game when Serfdom is good, typically when you discover a tech that gives you LOTS of new tile improvements at once (Civil Service, Replaceable Parts, Railroad) but most of the time, running slavery or caste is better. Indeed, if you need to run Serfdom, it's a sign you're not building enough workers.

I have actually never used Serfdom in any game yet. I guess it might try it if I had a spiritual leader (where I could change civics quickly), but I tend to stick to either slavery or caste system when it comes to labor civics.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[stratozyck]

You said you were Elizabeth, so in a situation like that I'd go for a religion, and then build a temple and go for the Great Prophet. If you are fortunate to found a religion in that city, you can build the wonder which will allow you to change over three to priests. This will give you up to +3 hammers. Then, with patience you can get two or three more Great Prophets and join them to the city. Each one is a guaranteed +2 hammer. With enough great people, you can turn a city surrounded by water into a production powerhouse...

Again... if it were me and my first city was like that, I'd go to the menu and hit regenerate...

 

[Duraska]

You said you were Elizabeth, so in a situation like that I'd go for a religion, and then build a temple and go for the Great Prophet. If you are fortunate to found a religion in that city, you can build the wonder which will allow you to change over three to priests. This will give you up to +3 hammers. Then, with patience you can get two or three more Great Prophets and join them to the city. Each one is a guaranteed +2 hammer. With enough great people, you can turn a city surrounded by water into a production powerhouse...

Again... if it were me and my first city was like that, I'd go to the menu and hit regenerate...

Yeah... uh, in my original post I mentioned that almost all of the known world shares my religion (founded by me) and by looking at the included image, you'll note that London is not the holy city.

I like the idea of working with what you're given, rather than restarting a thousand times until you get the perfect start. But that's just me...