flamingzaroc121
Emperor
no thats is correct because that thread was about 19 unused trait combos - 16 new leaders = 3 unused trait combos, probably Cha/Agg; Ind/Phi; and Fin/Org
Ind + Phi ?
- Thread starter FrenziedEye
- Start date
no thats is correct because that thread was about 19 unused trait combos - 16 new leaders = 3 unused trait combos, probably Cha/Agg; Ind/Phi; and Fin/Org
FrenziedEye
Chieftain
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Mmm..okay making this assumption once again that no traits are added to BTS, I really wonder what those banned traits would be.
I mean in the other thread I think there was some concern about Agg/Org. It would be interesting to see which trait combos are left out; but yes, once again it IS a bad assumption!
I guess it would be easier for Firaxis to add more traits to prevent some of these disputable combos.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
i think i misunderstood.
It's not at all overpowered or, at least, not as powerful as some traits already in the game, e.g. charimatic/organised. The only fourth trait combination that might be overpowered that I can think of is creative/philosophical but, unlike the 3 probable overpowered trait combinations already listed, it requires a particular strategy at a particular stage of the game to get the most poweful aspect out of it.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Here is some discussion about crea/philo http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4930460. It was fun to try but definetly overpowered.
FrenziedEye
Chieftain
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In any case since I'm living in Australia one of you guys in the States has to tell me what happens when BTS comes out okay 
? (I dunno when it comes out here???) Besides I've got school and stuff so it'll probably be a while before I can do anything...
lol. it would be pretty funny if Phi + Ind popped out anyway in the expansion despite the discussion in this thread. I could imagine stacks of fans refusing to play the game or complaining to Firaxis about the game 'harmony'.
But wouldn't that be a great challenge for Civ4 pros if the AI gets those buffed up traits? (not that I'm one...still learning!)
? (I dunno when it comes out here???) Besides I've got school and stuff so it'll probably be a while before I can do anything...lol. it would be pretty funny if Phi + Ind popped out anyway in the expansion despite the discussion in this thread. I could imagine stacks of fans refusing to play the game or complaining to Firaxis about the game 'harmony'.
But wouldn't that be a great challenge for Civ4 pros if the AI gets those buffed up traits? (not that I'm one...still learning!)
There are a lot of benefits to the creative/philosophical combination that are mentioned in that thread. Most of them do not make the combination overpowered - e.g. cheap libraries combined with cheap universities shouldn't be excessively powerful.
The only aspect of the combination that I'm aware of that I think could make it overpowered is the potential for a very early first great scientist. However, this requires a particular strategy at a particular stage in the game (as most trait combinations do to get the very best out of them). The other 3 trait combinations frequently listed as overpowered provide huge benefits at any stage of the game.
Also, you gave yourself an unfair advantage in your trial game. A creative/philosophical civ should not have mysticism as a starting technology. I'm thinking hunting, mining, or one of agriculture, wheel, and fishing.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Yep, mysticism gave it extra kick. IIRC early religion did not help that much but it is within the tech path to Literature (i just wanted to do it with Monty) - and start was exceptional as i mentioned. If that combination would be in the game i'm sure i would use it quite often, it was that fun.
. But I agree that cre/phi would be very very powerful.Giaur
War Dancer
In fact every combination of trait brings with additional power f.e. ...
cre/org) for land grabbing
cre/fin) the same
cre/imp) the same
agg/pro) extremely powerful drafting quality
pro/cha) easy way to get Drill4
exp/spi) for big cities
cha/exp) the same
cha/spi) it has been just tested - for domination
org/phi) for swift domination ... lib race and then overrun with upgraded cavs
cre/spi) for winning tiles by culture
Some combos are visible, some are not. Some are powerful and some are not. I am quite certain that phi/ind is not overpowered. I can say that cha/spi is more powerful ...
edit: Give me 3 more forests and I would grab GW and Mids with any Philo leader. I would gladly burn those trees
just to have some militaristic trait ...
cre/org) for land grabbing
cre/fin) the same
cre/imp) the same
agg/pro) extremely powerful drafting quality
pro/cha) easy way to get Drill4
exp/spi) for big cities
cha/exp) the same
cha/spi) it has been just tested - for domination
org/phi) for swift domination ... lib race and then overrun with upgraded cavs
cre/spi) for winning tiles by culture
Some combos are visible, some are not. Some are powerful and some are not. I am quite certain that phi/ind is not overpowered. I can say that cha/spi is more powerful ...
edit: Give me 3 more forests and I would grab GW and Mids with any Philo leader. I would gladly burn those trees
just to have some militaristic trait ...sylvanllewelyn
Perma-newb
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Industrious and philosophical is overrated I believe. More wonders and more great person but... how many GPP points do wonders produce?
If you really desire to see whether certain traits are broken or not, try editing. This game's coding is highly flexible in this regard. My opinion is that aggressive/charismatic is completely useless if your starting techs are fishing and hunting.
If you really desire to see whether certain traits are broken or not, try editing. This game's coding is highly flexible in this regard. My opinion is that aggressive/charismatic is completely useless if your starting techs are fishing and hunting.
not really the disadvantage isn't enough to stop you from rushing a close by neighbour so I'm one tech behind a Civ who starts with Mining... no biggie... I can still Axe Rush. Even if I can't do an early rush, my combination will be powerful throughout the entire game. therefore having crap starting techs isn't much of a disadvantage.
Besides Most people usually go for early Bronze Working for the slavery Civic, Chopping, Axeman and Copper are just VERY nice extras.
Edit : I've made a Mod if People are interested in testing out the Forbidden traits for themselves and consider for themselves whether their overpowered or not.
I Made:
Freddrick (Cre/Phil)
Washington (Fin/Org)
because they had those combinations in Vanilla
I never studied history so I don't know which leaders would suit the next couple of combinations, so I'll choose dependent on game balance
Napoleon (Agg/Cha)
Because he was Agg/Ind, in Vanilla and Cha/Org in Warlords, therefore he's eligible for that combination
I Was goning to Make Gandhi (Phil/Ind) but that'd just make him way too OVERPOWERED, combined with his fastworkers and Myst as starting tech, it'll just further increase the power (Phil/Ind) to insane extremes. Therefore I decided not to include Phil/Ind. I don't know any other current leader who would suit that combination because like i Said above, never studied history.
The reason why I would make Gandhi (Phil/Ind) is the same reason is why I'd make Napoleon Agg/Cha, In Vanilla Gandhi was (Spi/Ind) and in Warlords he's (Spi/Phil)
drkodos
Emperor
So many of the traits need synergy with a number of other factors for any of them to be truly overpowered. I do not think any of them are any more "overpowered" than some cultures and nations where in real-life history.
This whole concept of balance is just too far-fetched and political for me. What makes both games and life interesting is DYNAMIC IMBALANCES, not balance.
This whole concept of balance is just too far-fetched and political for me. What makes both games and life interesting is DYNAMIC IMBALANCES, not balance.
I'd agree with the bolded part but, as in history, dynamic imbalances come from geography - local terrain and resources. Traits seem to be a highly artificial concept and if they must be included then I'd much prefer that they provide roughly even bonuses.
I'd be delighted if a 'no traits' option was included in the custom game set up menu (same goes for unique units and buildings).
I don't believe that Phi/Ind is so gamebreaking as to not even be worth considering. The real power of Phi, surely, is in the specialists, not the World Wonders (like sylvanllewelyn says)!
Agg/Cha overpowered? Your military units will be more highly promoted than anyone else, but not so much more than any other Cha leader. And 'woe betide' your science rate!
The only trait combo I believe is overpowered is Fin/Org, because of the raw science output etc; and this is largely to do with Fin just being out-and-out the strongest trait available. If Fin were more balanced with the rest of the traits (and more to do with gold than science), I don't think any "trait combo" would be overpowered, as each would give you a bonus in distinct areas, and a relative deficit in others.
That's just my 0.02, feel free to tear apart my argument.
Yeah!
Agg/Cha overpowered? Your military units will be more highly promoted than anyone else, but not so much more than any other Cha leader. And 'woe betide' your science rate!
The only trait combo I believe is overpowered is Fin/Org, because of the raw science output etc; and this is largely to do with Fin just being out-and-out the strongest trait available. If Fin were more balanced with the rest of the traits (and more to do with gold than science), I don't think any "trait combo" would be overpowered, as each would give you a bonus in distinct areas, and a relative deficit in others.
That's just my 0.02, feel free to tear apart my argument.
Yeah!
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Heh, speaking of which, I played an Augustus game last night. The Praetorians didn't end up helping (one small neighbor I was content to let live), but his industrious trait, along with Roman forums, Parthenon, Pacifism, and national epic made it feel like I was Ind/Phi.
Rarely before have I had a great person pop up and said "Already??"
Of course, I'm not always the best at using them, but just having a bunch settled is fun to see, optimal or not.
Hold The Onion
Chieftain
flagging Ind-Phi as overpowered is BS to me. if Freddy, Pete, or any other Phi leader gets stone/marble they're already better because they have another useful trait and will beat you to the wonders. and if you wanna say "what about when Ind-Phi leader gets stone/marble himself?" so what? the stone/marble would be enough by itself to get the wonder built so all you really get over the other leaders is half-price forges.
what combination should be forbidden? how about Imperialistic and Protective? could you think of anything more useless? I'd probably find more use for a second belly button than that leader. the only way to salvage that guy would be to give him a UU axeman that needed no resources and had a strength of 10... even then i'd have second thought about using him. now that i think about it, any trait combination with Imperialistic should be forbidden because it sucks!
what combination should be forbidden? how about Imperialistic and Protective? could you think of anything more useless? I'd probably find more use for a second belly button than that leader. the only way to salvage that guy would be to give him a UU axeman that needed no resources and had a strength of 10... even then i'd have second thought about using him. now that i think about it, any trait combination with Imperialistic should be forbidden because it sucks!
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Cyrus with Charismatic and Imperialistic together and an early UU rocks. Settle all the extra great generals for very highly promoted units.
Other combinations aren't so exciting, although creative / imperialistic isn't too bad. Cheap settlers and early culture for the land grab, great generals and more culture for war expansion. Cheap libraries to run scientists to keep research going - since your finances will be shot.
Hold The Onion
Chieftain
yeah Cyrus makes solid use of it. But another trait coupled with Charismatic and his UU and solid UB would be better IMO. But he's good for taking advantage of the generals. Be it good or bad, your strategy is sort of already decided for you in the begining if you pick Cyrus. Just pray to the RNG gods to have horses and not be isolated. But if you've got horses and a neighbor you're in for some fun.
As far as Cathy goes for land hogging, it's ok as long as you're able to make your settlers out of hammers. If you're stuck making them out of food, hopefully you've got forests to chop. (I'm assuming those hammers get the bonus for being Imp even though i've never checked for sure.) you're right about finances being shot. The first time I played a game with her is when I found out what unit strike was.
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