Indian UHV strategy discussion

[mushyman]

Pacifist's comments in the latest patch thread piqued my curiosity, so I played a further eight India starts, which including my original two gives ten total. In brief:

1st: Founded Judaism, Hinduism - was beaten to Buddhism by the Greeks by two turns. This *may* have been avoidable with better micromanagement (see below).
2nd: Success! Founded Judaism, Hinduism and Buddhism, built the Oracle for Christianity, won UHV from there.
3rd: Founded Judaism, Hinduism. Did not continue to Buddhism.
4th: Beaten to Judaism by ~6 turns.
5th: Founded Judaism (despite scientific setback event), Hinduism. Pop Buddhism from a goodie hut!
6th: Beaten to Judaism by 4 turns.
7th: Beaten to Judaism by 1 turn (avoidable with micromanagement?).
8th: Beaten to Judaism by 3 turns. New micromanagement strategy attempted from here onwards.
9th: Founded Judaism, Hinduism and continued to successfully found Buddhism too. Forest fire event giving +1 unhealthy to Delhi would have made this a much harder game had I continued.
10th: Beaten to Judaism by 8(!) turns.

Pretty inconclusive really, but in every case where I founded Judaism I was able to continue on to Hinduism. The strategy I was using is this:

Found Delhi on the spot, start building a Warrior. Swap tile worked to grassland (the default is a forest - I did not start doing this until attempt 8, and the extra commerce could perhaps have saved me in attempts 1, 7). Send starting Warrior south to goodie hut. Tech path is clearly Masonry -> Polytheism -> Monotheism -> Meditation -> Priesthood.
Once Delhi borders expand, swap production to rice for +1 . Bring Warrior back up north once hut is popped. One turn before Delhi expands, switch tile worked to Wheat for +1 (this finishes your Warrior and ensures the hammers aren't wasted, while still providing enough food for Delhi to grow this turn). At this point you can send the newly built Warrior west to the huts, but I tended to get less hostile natives by waiting a turn or two and just using the initial Warrior instead.
Anyway, once Delhi grows switch production to a Settler - it should take 31 turns to build. Send whichever Warrior you picked over to get all the goodie huts in Europe. Assuming you hit Judaism, the Settler should be finished a turn or two later - it needs to found Takshashila. Founding this city will shave a turn off Meditation, but you need to have popped money from at least one hut (preferably either a big haul, or two money pops) - this happened to me every time, so I'm not sure of the consequences if it doesn't.
At this point I'm not sure of the best strategy, but it's probably to build a Worker straight away in Delhi - you want to get that Marble hooked up ASAP for Takshashila to build the Oracle. Now you just need to wait a few turns and see if you found the religions in time, although it might be worth adjusting Delhi's worked tiles as once Takshashila is founded it takes the Wheat. Assuming you hit the first three religions, the Oracle must be switched to in Takshashila as soon as Priesthood is researched - you should have time to squeeze in at least Agriculture before the necessary Writing to "bulb" Theology with the Oracle, which gives your worker something else to do. I left the computer to auto pick Takshashila's tiles worked, but micromanagement to maximise production may be a better strategy if you are consistently being beaten.

That's the basics I've been using anyway - has anyone had any luck with different strategies?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I got the 2/3 UHV but simply because I got Buddhism from a goody hut. The enmity of Persia due to proximity (from Takshashila being my capital) led to an early war with Persia and I gave up after a disheartening plague in 900 AD (shrinking Takshashila to a 1 pop!). Maybe I'll play on for a spaceship win.

 

[mushyman]

Ouch. I was lucky and China DOW'd me rather than Persia, and I only suffered one plague (just before the Arabs spawned - was a bit of a pain to get Divine Right due to my lack of focus leading up to it, but I made it). All my cities went to 1 pop but once the resources are improved all the Indian cities grow very quickly, Patna and Delhi especially.

If you have a chance to try it I'd be interested to know if you have any luck with the above strategy.

 

[Riker]

where is Takshashila?

 

[Walliard]

It seems the standard opening has become even more volatile now, since following it means that Greece can beat you to Priesthood if they choose to research it initially. I've had some moderate success with founding Lahore as my capital (2W of start, on the wheat), as its health cap of 4 leads to much better initial research, enough to found Judaism a turn earlier than with a size 2 Delhi, despite losing first turn. Further results forthcoming.

where is Takshashila?

On the forest north of the marble.

 

[Giger]

Ah, the infamous Indian UHV. I have tried so many times to reach it. With mixed success.

Personnally I am a fan of the Takashilla start. Much better health and you can found Delhi later to have the Iron in the fat cross. Delhi then becomes a big production center. Having it as the capital sucks since it is so limited in pop and whipping building out really seems to be the only way to reach the goals...

Anyway, this UHV is really unfair. It is based on random luck. I checked the python code and what happens is that judaism is founded based on a random value from turn 25 to 55 at the latest. So it's about a 50/50 chance you can found judaism in time (a little better with micro-management). No matter how good the strategy is. I don't think it's possible at monarch difficulty to found it before turn 36 even under the best of condition.

 

[Muz]

Anyway, this UHV is really unfair. It is based on random luck. I checked the python code and what happens is that judaism is founded based on a random value from turn 25 to 55 at the latest. So it's about a 50/50 chance you can found judaism in time (a little better with micro-management). No matter how good the strategy is. I don't think it's possible at monarch difficulty to found it before turn 36 even under the best of condition.

I find most of the UHVs to be based on random luck. The one I hated the most was waiting for Greek to load then.. 2 turns later, "The Oracle has been built.." I tried to do the Babylonian UHV by founding Judaism too.. man, that's worse than trying to found Judaism with India. I did succeed once.. then someone else got to Writing first

So, I've stopped going for UHVs. I find RFC to be a richer game if I can force myself to use the UHVs as a guideline (quests) rather than the ultimate goal

 

[Barak]

I just got Judaism, Buddhism and Hinduism on the first try.

Reserched Meditation, Masonry, Polytheism, Monotheism, Priesthood.

 

[onedreamer]

Like Barak, I usually do it starting from Meditation, since the extra culture helps. I don't convert to Hinduism (or Buddhism) until I know what religion Persia will convert to. I build three warriors first and try to pop each and every hut on earth because popping Agriculture (likely) is vital. Sometimes I pop Bronze Working which is equally vital. I often declare to Middle East Indipendents and harrass them as much as I can trying to delay Judaism, with mixed results.

The funny thing about strategy guides for India UHV is that they mostly only talk of achieving the first 2 conditions, but I think the toughest is actually the third.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The funny thing about strategy guides for India UHV is that they mostly only talk of achieving the first 2 conditions, but I think the toughest is actually the third.

So true...the inevitable plague just decimates India since China has no jungle or swamps. Plus China usually builds Hanging Gardens. I usually send a settler to Jayakarta which grows huge very quickly with a harbor and granary whipped (2 seafood, 1 banana).

 

[3Miro]

I did India and I am happy. The first part seems kind of strange. In 8 games I failed to found Judaism only twice (the AI found it on turns 26 and 28 which is ridiculously fast). The other religions become: Christianity with the Oracle and 2GP for the Divine Right.

I prefer to start at Lahore as my capital (nest to the marble on top of the sugar). I can found it on the second turn and then it grows fast. I wait until it grows to size 3 then I build a worker. I get Monotheism on turn 38. After the worker I build a settler but do not settle Delhi until I have the first three religions. I want them all in Lahore so that I can build temples and run four priests. That gives me the great prophets in plenty of time to beat Arabia to Islam.

With the added commerce of the marble, Greeks stand no chance (I got priesthood 5 turns after they spawned). And Lahore can build the Oracle in about 10 - 13 turn, one just needs to be careful not to build it before discovering Witting.

I don't remember ever failing the third UHV. Just build 5 cities and whip only the bare necessities. I can easily become twice the size of China. I never got hit by the Plague, but there was only one plague early on and even that would not have made huge difference.

 

[blizzrd]

Care to update the wiki with your learnings?

 

[Legendre]

Up until this point I've never really tried for the Indian UHV because founding 5 religions seemed rather intimidating, and I have come to the conclusion that I suck at playing Ghandi! I was trying the Takshashila start and I wasn't able to get Judaism + Hinduism + Buddhism on any of my tries .

 

[3Miro]

Legendre, what do you do with your warrior. It might be a superstition, but I seem to be more successful if I send the first warrior to the hut is southern India and only the second warrior to Europe. The 5/5 fails that I got, I would always send the warrior to Europe first.

(Also try it on Monarch, I don't think it is possible to do the UHV on Emperor)

 

[Legendre]

Warrior Voodoo! I was sending my first warrior toward Europe and later grabbing the hut with my second. Hmmm.... I'm going to have to try this now! Summer break = win.

 

[3Miro]

Legendre, post the results when you are ready. I am really curious if there actually is something to the warrior thing.

 

[Legendre]

3Miro, I LOVE YOU! In a platonic way . I'm proud to present this screenshot, my first time ever UHV victory with India (10648 points).

The warrior voodoo works, and this was on my first try after replying to your post! The goodie hut in India just gave me a map, and my second warrior made his long journey to Europe. Along the way, I had several incredible events. The herbalists visited Takshashila, giving all my cities +2 health which was basically the clincher! Also, my scientists gave me bonus research for writing later on!

I think I made a mistake later on by wasting my time researching divine right. I eventually had to bulb it twice, and I am assuming that 2 bulbs is enough to get it so I probably could have gotten a few cheaper techs in the meantime, but all in all it worked out well!

 

[blizzrd]

Divine Right takes two bulbs and a little bit of your own research also (at least it did when I last played India).

 

[3Miro]

Yep, India is a nice one.

For the warrior voodoo, maybe there is some tech leaking between the Independents and the player. If you see an independent city too early, they get a research boost or something. Someone more knowledgeable would tell me if I am right or wrong.

 

[Virdrago]

I don't know about the warrior voodoo - I generally have my warrior go through India first, and my last two games, the Independents founded Hinduism just before I researched Judaism. I hadn't seen the independent cities (read: Shush) yet.