Indonesia

[PurpleMentat]

The problem with converting faith into anything is that faith is one of the worst scaling yields in the game, meaning as the game goes on the ability just gets worse and worse.

I was honestly a fan of the old +2 faith per religion mostly because it gave you the extra faith right when you needed it, when you were working on converting your cities, getting that second great prophet or buying your pagodas.
Don't get me wrong I would eventually have gotten here anyways, I think the yields on the old Candi were underwhelming as well, but at least they had a pretty clear use.


I'd also like to point out that I really don't find the Indonesian UU as impressive as you make it out to be, there are some decent rolls you can end up with from the mystic blade promotion, but in general the unit is pretty mediocre.

I agree that converting Faith to anything is weak, and try to point this out with the Culture example. It also doesn't really fit the historical theme of candis, which were temples and burial sites. It should be focused on faith generation, as it is a temple, shrine, and burial site.

Giving bonuses per religion in the city is a trade-off in CBP, unless it comes with Happiness to offset that trade-off. Not really a good design. I even question the Pagoda, but 4 faith and 2 of every other yield is good enough so you don't need to take the trade off.

On the UU, I find Restlessness, Invulnerability, Heroism, and Enemy Defection very useful. Recruitment, Ancestral Defense and Ambition I'm not unhappy with. The only sucky roll in my book is Sneak Attack. Remove that from the game entirely and I'm satisfied.

Let's not forget you get free unique luxury resources from it.

G

Honestly, that's an extension of the UA, so we don't want to raze and rebuild every city we conquer. It doesn't feel like a part of the building, it feels like a part of the UA.

 

[Gazebo]

I agree that converting Faith to anything is weak, and try to point this out with the Culture example. It also doesn't really fit the historical theme of candis, which were temples and burial sites. It should be focused on faith generation, as it is a temple, shrine, and burial site.

Giving bonuses per religion in the city is a trade-off in CBP, unless it comes with Happiness to offset that trade-off. Not really a good design. I even question the Pagoda, but 4 faith and 2 of every other yield is good enough so you don't need to take the trade off.

On the UU, I find Restlessness, Invulnerability, Heroism, and Enemy Defection very useful. Recruitment, Ancestral Defense and Ambition I'm not unhappy with. The only sucky roll in my book is Sneak Attack. Remove that from the game entirely and I'm satisfied.



Honestly, that's an extension of the UA, so we don't want to raze and rebuild every city we conquer. It doesn't feel like a part of the building, it feels like a part of the UA.

That's a good point – should indonesia spawn resources on conquest?

G

 

[Funak]

That's a good point – should indonesia spawn resources on conquest?

I have been thinking about this a lot actually. And I wonder if it would be possible for non-founded cities to generate an extra luxury from the candi.
Like, can the game detect how many luxuries have spawned around the city and add an extra if it doesn't add up?

If that doesn't work I guess conquest could be a nice alternative, although I think my suggestion would be better mostly because it takes some investment to get the luxuries up.

I agree that converting Faith to anything is weak, and try to point this out with the Culture example. It also doesn't really fit the historical theme of candis, which were temples and burial sites. It should be focused on faith generation, as it is a temple, shrine, and burial site.

Giving bonuses per religion in the city is a trade-off in CBP, unless it comes with Happiness to offset that trade-off. Not really a good design. I even question the Pagoda, but 4 faith and 2 of every other yield is good enough so you don't need to take the trade off.

Yeah getting rid of the per religion thing is probably a good choice, but we need something to hold the UB up.

We probably want some kind of unique ability, along with some base-yields, the current base-yields of 2 faith are decent bumping it up to 2faith 2 culture would probably be good enough.

On the UU, I find Restlessness, Invulnerability, Heroism, and Enemy Defection very useful. Recruitment, Ancestral Defense and Ambition I'm not unhappy with. The only sucky roll in my book is Sneak Attack. Remove that from the game entirely and I'm satisfied.

I'm not saying that they are bad, but most of them are worse than than the more powerful unique promotions that other UUs have, and you have no control over which ones you're getting.



I agree with your point about the spawn luxury thing is a part of the UA, the luxury from the candi is more of a delayed part of the UA to make the earlygame more balanced and the midgame more bearable.

 

[PurpleMentat]

That's a good point – should indonesia spawn resources on conquest?

G

Yes. Indonesia's UA is two of their Plantation Luxuries per city, one immediate, one delayed, and the 'no separation anxiety' thing. (Isolation unhappiness, right?) As long as we can't get both luxuries in conquered cities, there will be some temptation to raze and rebuild.

We probably want some kind of unique ability, along with some base-yields, the current base-yields of 2 faith are decent bumping it up to 2faith 2 culture would probably be good enough.


I'm not saying that they are bad, but most of them are worse than than the more powerful unique promotions that other UUs have, and you have no control over which ones you're getting.

2 faith 2 culture sounds wonderful. What sort of unique ability do you have in mind? A miniature Ceremonial Burial could work thematically, giving small Faith and Culture when an owned unit dies. It's also not a huge bonus, so it keeps the UB as a nice bonus while the UA continues to be the star.

As far as the UU, how would you go about fixing it? Earlier access? Increased CS? Swordsman UU's aren't super powerful usually. I feel like making the Mystic Swordsman promotions universally desirable is the proper answer for Indonesia, and most of them are more powerful than other swordsman UU's.

 

[Funak]

2 faith 2 culture sounds wonderful. What sort of unique ability do you have in mind? A miniature Ceremonial Burial could work thematically, giving small Faith and Culture when an owned unit dies. It's also not a huge bonus, so it keeps the UB as a nice bonus while the UA continues to be the star.

I'm not a huge fan of having to lose units, or having buildings that promote losing units.
That being said I have no problem with the cermonial burial founder belief, mostly because it fills another role as well.

Maybe let it give some minor local yields when a GP is expended?

As far as the UU, how would you go about fixing it? Earlier access? Increased CS? Swordsman UU's aren't super powerful usually. I feel like making the Mystic Swordsman promotions universally desirable is the proper answer for Indonesia, and most of them are more powerful than other swordsman UU's.

I think we can leave it as it is, I was mostly pointing out that as far as UUs goes, this one really isn't toptier.

 

[mavol6]

what about providing bonus yields to the religious belief buildings?, it would be hard to pull more than 2 but it could have its benefits if you manage to get 2 buildings for your religion.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Maybe let it give some minor local yields when a GP is expended?

Well, a quick look into funeral customs for the religion associated with the candi says that food would be appropriate.

Not my first choice mechanically. I'm a bit worried about pushing Indonesia too much towards Tradition and cranking out great people. Right now their only interaction with GPs is the candi being in place of the garden for no great reason that I can see. I'd rather see a bonus on WLtKD, or GA's.

what about providing bonus yields to the religious belief buildings?, it would be hard to pull more than 2 but it could have its benefits if you manage to get 2 buildings for your religion.

I kind of like this idea, though it does constrain what beliefs you can select. That's not the worst thing in the world.

 

[TruthfulCake]

On the UB
I agree that a culture yield is probably more thematically sound than a science yield. Then again a temple/mortuary that magically spawns exotic plants around it does not make thematic sense either. I also keep relating the candi back to monasteries thanks to Borobudur's free building.

I feel that the temple and burial site aspect of the candi is sufficiently portrayed in its base faith yield and GP generation bonus. That said, additional faith/culture points wouldn't hurt. The question is how to generate said yield.

Not a fan of encouraging units to die. Definitely not a fan of the "per religion" thing (used to like it a lot in vanilla). If percent yields are unsatisfactory because it is "only" 20%, can't we buff this number? Converting faith to something else is a mechanic that hasn't been used in other UBs AFAIK, and I like the novelty, be it converted to science or culture, or even tourism points.

Another idea is to just remove the "per religion" flavor from the previous bonuses, and make it generate faith per follower of any religion. In a well-maintained empire, each city can generate ~30 faith with a candi with or without foreign religions.

On the UA
I'm a bit iffy about instantly spawning new resources in conquered city. I'm not sure about this, but can the spawned new resource disappear if the city is recaptured by another civ? Since capturing cities often happen away from the core of your empire, there is a much higher risk of losing the city you just captured - especially during the unrest period. I wouldn't like for Indonesia to suddenly lose its monopoly because a city it captured generated the valuable Nutmeg at the enemy's doorstep.

I don't feel that the UA is lacking anyway. No unhappiness from isolation is huge - it allows for more aggressive settling early game. And I never find myself so short on the three unique resources within the core of my empire that I need to raze/rebuild a captured city just to get more copies.

On the UU
I don't think this one needs a buff. The melee line is strong till the end of the game, and the bonuses can be quite useful (not Carolean levels, but still). That said, I agree that the flanking bonus is probably by far the worst promotion among the bunch. If we remove that bonus, the remaining are quite solid.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Not my first choice mechanically. I'm a bit worried about pushing Indonesia too much towards Tradition and cranking out great people. Right now their only interaction with GPs is the candi being in place of the garden for no great reason that I can see. I'd rather see a bonus on WLtKD, or GA's.

I currently don't go Tradition as Indonesia because Hanging Gardens somehow works against the civ. Ever since the bonus building of the HG is replaced by the free baths, which for some reason I can't seem to sell, it has stopped me from getting my much-needed candi (which provides everything a baths does, but then much more).

About the candi being a garden replacement, from what I can see from my last visit to Prambanan and Borobudur, the vast compound around the stone structures seems garden-y to me. Plus a garden is probably the only thing that ties the candi and the plantation resources.

A bonus on WLtKD or GA is probably thematically sound as well, considering that Majapahit was pretty much a Golden Age in itself in the history of Indonesia.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Well darn. Hope the Hanging Gardens thing gets fixed. Guess I'm canning the game I'm playing. Wanted to try Tradition-Piety-Radicalism-Freedom Indonesia can into space, but not getting a candi in my capital is a deal breaker.

 

[Funak]

I'm not a fan of a boost to religious buildings (if by religious buildings you mean pagoda and so no, I'm fine with a boost to shrine/temple), I'm just not really that into limiting choices in terms of religious beliefs (not to mention that indonesia isn't by any means guaranteed to get a religion).

I could be fine with a boost to golden ages or WLTKD, I could also be fine with a flat boost whenever a GP is expended even if that kinda pushes you towards tradition/aesthetics. I envision the boost to be small enough that policies wouldn't exactly be make it or break it.
That being said the WLTKD/GA thing was a lot better of a suggestion.


As for the HG/Garden/Baths issue, I still just think the namechange of the bath and the garden was unnecessary and in most cases just end up hurting everyone. However easiest way to solve this is just to remove the option to build a bath (as well as garden) from indonesia, possibly having the Candi replacing both of them.
I've actually seen problems with this already, if you conquer a city with a bath in, you're locked from building a Candi until you sell the bath, which is weird.

 

[TruthfulCake]

As for the HG/Garden/Baths issue, I still just think the namechange of the bath and the garden was unnecessary and in most cases just end up hurting everyone. However easiest way to solve this is just to remove the option to build a bath (as well as garden) from indonesia, possibly having the Candi replacing both of them.
I've actually seen problems with this already, if you conquer a city with a bath in, you're locked from building a Candi until you sell the bath, which is weird.

I'm fine with the reasoning behind the effect swap - after all I agree with the reasoning behind it. Non-river cities had a head start with the well where river cities had to wait until the water mill, so for the bath/garden it should be swapped.

What I am not so fine with is the idea that the garden cannot be built on fresh water. I can imagine the baths requiring an adjacent source of fresh water, and I can understand how the two buildings can be mutually exclusive (need much water for baths, cannot garden), but game-balance-wise these two conditions suffice. There is no need to make gardens un-buildable next to a river (which makes zero sense), because with baths being the superior option, nobody who starts next to a river would build a garden over a baths.

With the exception of Indonesia, of course. I think the easiest way to solve this is to make Hanging Gardens give a free garden again. After all, the recent buff in food kind of made it a little bit too good compared to Parthenon and Terracotta Army.

 

[Funak]

I'm fine with the reasoning behind the effect swap - after all I agree with the reasoning behind it. Non-river cities had a head start with the well where river cities had to wait until the water mill, so for the bath/garden it should be swapped.

What I am not so fine with is the idea that the garden cannot be built on fresh water. I can imagine the baths requiring an adjacent source of fresh water, and I can understand how the two buildings can be mutually exclusive (need much water for baths, cannot garden), but game-balance-wise these two conditions suffice. There is no need to make gardens un-buildable next to a river (which makes zero sense), because with baths being the superior option, nobody who starts next to a river would build a garden over a baths.

With the exception of Indonesia, of course. I think the easiest way to solve this is to make Hanging Gardens give a free garden again. After all, the recent buff in food kind of made it a little bit too good compared to Parthenon and Terracotta Army.

Honestly speaking I really don't care which one of them unlocks first, I usually don't start building gardens/baths before I have both the techs anyways so it doesn't bother me at all. But I do care about the fact that the Garden have always been the freshwater choice, and I don't like a change just for the sake of change.
You can't build a garden without water, sure you can't build a bath without water either, but the bath is a later addition, if anything the bath building could be switched out for anything else.

 

[TruthfulCake]

I think the aqueduct requirement is the replacement for the fresh water requirement. It still makes sense to me, and it makes prohibiting gardens on fresh water tiles make even less sense. Also, there are gardens that don't necessarily need much water if at all (think the Ryoan-ji stone gardens in Kyoto).

BTW, regarding the UA, currently the resource that spawns seem to depend on RNG. Will it be a good idea to make it cyclical instead? Nutmeg -> Cloves -> Pepper -> Nutmeg... just to have more semblance of control over the UA. I don't think it would be overpowered, would it?

 

[Picrasso]

For the UB, maybe partly a nerf in that you lessen the yields from Indonesia's unique luxes a bit and then add that to the Candi? Just like some other buildings give bonus yields to specific resources. It would also mean others could profit from owning pepper, cloves or nutmeg but will have less yields.

 

[PurpleMentat]

Nerfing the UA to buff the candi is ick, unless you're giving more than you take.

 

[Funak]

I think the UA is fine. The no isolation thing could possibly be dropped if someone feels the UA is too overwhelming to make the Candi interesting.

 

[TruthfulCake]

Nah, the UA should not be nerfed. After all, Indonesia is the only civ I can think of whose bonus may potentially benefit other civs (more luxury resource on map, chance to capture unique monopolies). A "selfish" aspect of the UA should remain, especially if it makes thematic sense as removing isolation penalty from cities in far-flung islands in an archipelagic civilization.

The candi is in a good place with the 3/14 patch, I think. The suggestions in this thread were adopted, so yay.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

The Invulnerability Promotion for the Kris Swordsman seems too strong. It gives 30% Defense and +20 HP when healing.

 

[Funak]

The Invulnerability Promotion for the Kris Swordsman seems too strong. It gives 30% Defense and +20 HP when healing.

That's like almost the same as an immortal? Seems fair to me.

I mean since you have absolutely no control over these promotions it's totally fair that some one them are straight up better than other unique units, at least in my opinion.