Industry And Aggression: A Duffer's Look At Stalin

Bandobras Took

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I've seen a couple of threads deploring the current level of strategy article threads and though I'd do something about it by addressing something that's always seemed a little odd to me: the idea that one can go for early wonders but in so doing can't make use of other trait X.

These ideas are based on Noble level (I'd play a higher level if I were more willing to do the math involved in Slavery/Chopping) and with Stalin (Aggressive/Industrious in BtS).

Since Stalin's Aggressive, you want to be warring, but since he's Industrious, you want to be building wonders. I've seen alternating periods of War and Peace (how appropriate) mentioned, but there are at least a few early-game wonders that really help a warmonger, and Stalin's in a position to grab them:

1) Pyramids+Police State:

+25% Unit Production in all cities and -50% War Weariness is great for a Warmonger. The price tag's the problem: High Upkeep Civics with a non-organized leader can suck. Also, at higher levels, happy caps may mean more actual production from Representation's happiness bonus. If you have readily available Happiness resources, though, give this one a try, as the happiness resources also often generate bonus Commerce which can help offset the cost of a High-Upkeep civic. Also, Stalin starts with hunting and your scouts stand a good chance of keeping your economy going from goody hut popping.

This can also be useful when you're just looking to raze another Civ that's going to be a problem in the future; the upkeep from captured cities won't be a problem when you're not trying to capture them.

2) Great Wall+Great Spy+Alphabet:

Stalin's got a decent shot at the Great Wall and an early Great Spy. Settle him or Infiltrate depending on whether you want a Long or Short-Term bonus, then use spies to drop city defenses for your aggressive Axes and Swords, obviating the need for Siege Weapons.

3) Aesthetics & Literature Beeline:

This one for 3 reasons:

A) Statue of Zeus to make sure whomever you're fighting is run into the Ground with War Weariness. Also denial: as a Warmonger, you don't want someone else building it.

B) Shwedagon Paya gives you access to Theocracy without having to research Theology. It's like an extra tech as far as Warmongering goes!

C) You get a cheaper Heroic Epic than most people; you should push this advantage.

Depending on the bonus resources any of these are worth pursuing. As an Industrious leader and with a decent focus, Stalin has a shot at any of them. His odds are improved since he starts with Mining, and so has early access to Bronze Working (for Slavery/Chopping) and Masonry. If you decide which Wonders you want and focus on them, you only really need to dedicate one city to their pursuit, which isn't too much of a crimp in unit Production.

It's worth noting that while these strategies may also be useful with DeGaulle:

1) He doesn't start with mining; and
2) DeGaulle+Stonehenge=Intense happiness and a more vigorous religious game. :)

Hopefully this will satisfy people's desire for a strategy article that's actually a strategy article (even if it's short). If it does not satisfy, feel free to publicly berate me. :)
 
Russia is also an interesting civ for its Unique Building. It provides a considerable lategame boost and synergises well with a lategame SE staying in Representation, which would also remain useful for settled specialist after a bit of wonderspam.
 
I'd like to see an obsolete's version of Stalin's wonderspam.
 
Russia is also an interesting civ for its Unique Building. It provides a considerable lategame boost and synergises well with a lategame SE staying in Representation, which would also remain useful for settled specialist after a bit of wonderspam.

Yes, but by that very token the Research Lab has less to do with Stalin specifically and more to do with Russia in General (Peter's going to have generated a lot of Great People, too, and is even more likely than Stalin to have wanted Representation).
 
I've chosen Stalin for multiplayer twice now, but I'm not so sure he's the guy I want to go with. While I like his starting techs and aggressiveness, building wonders in a multiplayer game just seems like it puts me behind in the military spam race. On top of that, IMO you need industrious and stone to make it really rock.

Although not sure what would be better as a second trait...
 
I love Russia. Great starting techs (enabling scouts and quicker bronze working) allow you to go either builder or warmonger. To me, Stalin is a classic play-the-map kind of leader. That said, he needs to decide early on how he's going to get his research and start working on it immediately, since he has no shot at an early religious shrine and his traits add nothing economically. Industrious wonders that help the economy (Temple of Artemis, Colossus, Great Lighthouse) can be big. Absent that, though, Stalin needs to raise his happy caps and get cottaging and/or farming for specialists ASAP (the latter, particularly, if he gets the Pyramids).

An Oracle - Metal Casting slingshot would also work well here, enabling both Colossus and getting within one tech of Machinery for early crossbows.
 
After seeing another comment that you can't build Wonders and Soldiers, I thought I'd do a little looking around in the Civilopedia and see just what I miss by building wonders. These numbers assume Normal speed; longer speed games favor warmongering by nature.

Warrior 15
Scout 15
Archer 25
Axeman 35
Spearman 35
Swordsman 40
Galley 50

Stonehenge 120
The Great Wall 150
The Oracle 150
The Great Lighthouse 200
The Maoi Statues 250
The Pyramids 500
Chichen Itza 500

Assuming normal speed:

Stonehenge costs you 8 Warriors/Scouts or 5 Archers.
The Great Wall costs you 10 Warriors/Scouts or 6 Archers.
The Oracle costs you 10 Warriors/Scouts or 6 Archers or 5 Axemen.
The Great Lighthouse costs you 4 Galleys.
The Maoi Statues cost you 5 Galleys.
The Pyramids cost you 18 Axemen/Spearmen or 13 Swordsmen.
The Chichen Itza costs you 18 Axemen/Spearmen or 13 Swordsmen.

And Industrious leader has +50% Wonder Production, for every two hammers they normally produce when building a wonder, the produce an extra one, which means that they spend roughly a third less (and that’s about all the math I’m willing to put forth).

Stonehenge 90
The Great Wall 100
The Oracle 100
The Great Lighthouse 134 (Roughly)
The Maoi Statues 166 (Roughly)
The Pyramids 433 (Roughly)
Chichen Itza 433 (Roughly)

For an Industrious Leader, then:

Stonehenge costs you 6 Warriors/Scouts or 4 Archers.
The Great Wall costs you 7 Warriors/Scouts or 4 Archers.
The Oracle costs you 7 Warriors/Scouts or 4 Archers.
The Great Lighthouse costs you 4 Galleys.
The Maoi Statues cost you 5 Galleys.
The Pyramids cost you 13 Axemen/Spearmen or 11 Swordsmen.
The Chichen Itza costs you 13 Axemen/Spearmen or 11 Swordsmen.

The only conclusion I’ve reached from this is:

1) If you’ve got one city building a wonder, make sure you have a second producing troops, and:
2) Make sure you’re focusing on cheaper troops if you’re Industrious. Industrious can put you five axemen ahead of a Non-Industrious Civ trying to do the same thing with the Pyramids.

Other notes:

The Maoi Statues boost production and so pay for themselves after a few turns as far as military goes.

The Chichen Itza and The Great Wall bump your power graph by 4 Axemen/5 Axemen respectively. This makes their opportunity cost somewhat less, as an AI will act as though you had 4 extra Axemen lying around.

The Pyramids enables Police State, which can help you recoup the unit loss.

As Far as Stalin goes, I think he doesn't lose too much of his Warmongering edge by going for Wonders, especially those which can help Warmongering. I haven't gone through the later Wonders, since as the game progresses there's no guarantee that the units and the Wonders will be around the same tier.
 
Stalin is by far the best civilization leader to go with, his industry and agressio are great for like the first post said, the pyrmaids+police state, you can aquire this and rage havoc across the land, in almost any game up to Emperor i have successfully warmongersd and usually knock out the first two nearest opponents by around 500 AD. as you can see from the profile he is my favorite civ leader ;)
 
What about the early StoneHenge+GreatWall approach? It rocks if you hae stone, since it's cost will then be ((120 + 150) / (1 + 1 (stone) + .5 (IND)) = 108 :hammers:.

With those two wonders in place, you will be able to focus so much on war with your :hammers: (due to no need for :culture: buildings or barb defense), you will simply overwhelm the enemy.

And yes, it is possible to grab these wonders without Myst. Russia starts with Mining, so go something like (food tech)->Masonry->Wheel->Mysti->BW.

Apply chop or Slavery for the final push to SH. You should be able to have 2 warriors and a worker out by the time you have linked up Stone. I have done this on Noble, with Julius Caesar of Rome (Org/Imp, no IND trait), on noble. I had seafood and fishing, but apart from that, I was in same position as Stalin would be.
 
What about the early StoneHenge+GreatWall approach? It rocks if you hae stone, since it's cost will then be ((120 + 150) / (1 + 1 (stone) + .5 (IND)) = 108 :hammers:.

With those two wonders in place, you will be able to focus so much on war with your :hammers: (due to no need for :culture: buildings or barb defense), you will simply overwhelm the enemy.

And yes, it is possible to grab these wonders without Myst. Russia starts with Mining, so go something like (food tech)->Masonry->Wheel->Mysti->BW.

Apply chop or Slavery for the final push to SH. You should be able to have 2 warriors and a worker out by the time you have linked up Stone. I have done this on Noble, with Julius Caesar of Rome (Org/Imp, no IND trait), on noble. I had seafood and fishing, but apart from that, I was in same position as Stalin would be.

Interesting - so are you saying start the GW first, then SH? Usually SH is built first by AI's, right? Wouldn't it be better to build SH then GW? Myst is faster to tech than masonry, no? Myst also reduces the cost of teching Masonry.
 
If you're looking at early war, the Great Wall will likely do more for you than Stonehenge, so I think it's a question of which one you want to run the greater risk of missing. In my games, the AI tends to go for the Great Wall fairly early as well.
 
If you're looking at early war, the Great Wall will likely do more for you than Stonehenge, so I think it's a question of which one you want to run the greater risk of missing. In my games, the AI tends to go for the Great Wall fairly early as well.

ok that's a great point. After checking a few game logs it's closer to 50/50 as to which the AI builds first.

I suppose the GW can often save more hammers than SH when going to early war. A spy is also amazing for the ability to lower defense % without siege as you mentioned.
 
Forget Police State - you want representation or monarchy in the early game.

My top game was with Augustus which is a similar military / aggression game. Playing on Immortal I had two losses with Augustus before I worked out how to use him properly - and that win gave me my highest score ever.

What I learned was that wonderspam and military conquest don't go together easily. But industrious does really help a warring economy if you use it right.

For peaceful industrious wins - wonderspam and use wonders in three spread out cities to force out a zone of culture in which you can settle. Great for culture wins and fast teching games as you don't overexpand cities too early.

For warlike industrious wins, fewer early wonders is better. In fact only one - the Pyramids. Which gives you representation and very high early research from settled specialists. Which means you don't have to worry about your tech rate while you run your science slider into the ground with constant warfare.

By the time wonders like the GL become available then you should have enough cities that the capital can indulge itself in wonder building. And you can use your cheap forges to keep your military production high. You can also target wonders like the SoL, UoS, AP etc which give per city bonuses that go along with your expansion.
 
As I mentioned, this is for lower difficulty levels; the Happy cap isn't that crippling on Prince or less and upkeep is lower. In such an instance, producing troops more quickly helps make up for the hammers invested in the Wonder in the first place, and . One would likely switch to something else once comfortable with the current amount of troops.

In general, though, I agree that you don't want to Wonder Spam, but any of those three options are a shot in the arm for warmongering. Getting all of them would probably preclude early warring.
 
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