Industry New Best Virtue?

[sprang]

Industry looks to be new best overall virtue.

1. Value of Prosperity free colonist reduced because of TR nerf. 3 Prosp may still be the strongest opening in most cases, but not the 95%+ choice it was before.
2. Eudamonia nerf means value of further Prosperity is reduced.
3. Industry 1 and 3 let you speed up Trade Depot construction. Depots are still a must-buy in new cities, and the +10% and +25% virtues bonuses for buildings are the only way to do it. Even if you rush a recycler, the combined 35% build speed is a must-get.

4. Magansanti, baby. In a size 12 city on Apollo, Eudamonia gives -2 unHealth
( 4+(.75*12)=13 ; 15% is 1.95 )
But a size 12 city can easily have more than 10 buildings in it, giving more than +2 health.

Caveats:
1. New UnHealth penalties make Prosperity's still-considerable health virtues more valuable.
2. Reduced Internal TR resources to new cities mean that cities will have less proecution so fewer buildings - no more "build everything in every city all the time", so Magansanti value will be affected. But the same goes for reduced food. Not sure how this will play with overall reduced growth speeds. It may be close to a wash, if not a win for Magnasanti - TRs have much larger effects on pop growth than production, in percentage terms.

 

[Xenotitan]

Also, alternative markets is now more appealing as station trade routes are the only type that haven't been heavily nerfed. On the other hand, the stronger unhealth penalties make the manufactory boost virtue less desirable. The internal trade route boosting virtue is weaker as well. I'd still peg it as the best tree to start with, although I wouldn't go past 10 industry. There's a few too many weak virtues for the 15 synergy to be worth it and once you get most of the good virtues going down knowledge is a good idea I think.

Still, I haven't really gotten a good feel for how to play with the patch and when it is a good idea to stop founding cities.

 

[Gorbles]

Industry always was the best. I'm surprised people didn't realise it. Eudamonia was strong, but as an end-tier Virtue that revolves around building Cities (and thus unhealth) it's somewhat integral to that tree's playstyle.

Magnasanti has always been the strong choice, and the sheer number of general perks the Industry tree gives you (bonus Energy per Station tier, two lots of +1% Energy up to 100 Energy per turn, etc).

 

[FaceUnderMask]

Free colonist is still very strong.
Industry did become better, sure, but the main reason is not necessity to hardbuild TD, the main reason is decrease in the amount of gold generated, which means you are more likely to run out of gold surplus if spamming academies and biowells.

 

[Esperr]

Prosperity gained power with its +3 gold on trade routes virtue. But that lost power because you cant trade lump sums without a co op agreement, which was like 90% of the reason for grabbing it early.

 

[Roxlimn]

I'm with Gorb here. I've always thought that Industry edged out Prosperity if you were only going for a single tree. In a multi-tree game, the early Colonist might have been okay, but you're still three Virtues down from Alternative Markets and Magnasanti. You're trading a stronger early game when you have next to no threats for a weaker mid and end game.

If you really don't care about Health, then the rest of Prosperity is decidedly mediocre in comparison.

Also, alternative markets is now more appealing as station trade routes are the only type that haven't been heavily nerfed. On the other hand, the stronger unhealth penalties make the manufactory boost virtue less desirable. The internal trade route boosting virtue is weaker as well. I'd still peg it as the best tree to start with, although I wouldn't go past 10 industry. There's a few too many weak virtues for the 15 synergy to be worth it and once you get most of the good virtues going down knowledge is a good idea I think.

The unhealth has almost nothing to do with it. The lower yields and cap means that there's no benefit to spamming a lot of Manufactories in a single city, and you can't do that anyway because you can't send food to a city that's poor in food - so you have to build Farms and Biowells everywhere, depleting the amount of space and population you can devote to Manufactories. As it is now, it's just a sometimes-building you can kind of build when you want to boost your production a little in maybe one or two cities. That means the Virtue is maybe worth 4-10 hammers per turn in a very large empire.

It is still possible to comfortably expand without much unhealth, depending on tech. Certainly managed it well enough in my Purity game post-patch. The kill on city specialization is a sure nerf for the Manufactory boost.

 

[Xenotitan]

I always felt industry > prosperity for a single tree as well. The free colonist -> industry was competitive though. You were really only 2 virtues behind for the deep industry techs because of the width I bonus. I did feel the virtue lag, but I think getting the second city and first trade route up sooner sped everything else up enough that it probably didn't fall behind in the mid to end game.

Also, I'm really feeling the have to build Farms and Biowells everywhere thing you mentioned. I think any strategy that involves spamming non-food improvements is done for. But given how quickly food bins increase you can probably find some room for things that aren't farms or biowells after you've got several pop working the food improvements and just give up on growing your cities past a certain point. Manufactories could be a decent choice for those improvements, maybe 2 or so per city, if it wasn't for the 2 unhealth.

I'm currently playing around with 10 industry -> knowledge. There's a few rather lackluster virtues in industry even though most are strong, and spending 3 or 4 virtues on the 15 industry synergy is a bit too much.

 

[sprang]

I always felt industry > prosperity for a single tree as well. The free colonist -> industry was competitive though. You were really only 2 virtues behind for the deep industry techs because of the width I bonus. I did feel the virtue lag, but I think getting the second city and first trade route up sooner sped everything else up enough that it probably didn't fall behind in the mid to end game.

Also, I'm really feeling the have to build Farms and Biowells everywhere thing you mentioned. I think any strategy that involves spamming non-food improvements is done for. But given how quickly food bins increase you can probably find some room for things that aren't farms or biowells after you've got several pop working the food improvements and just give up on growing your cities past a certain point. Manufactories could be a decent choice for those improvements, maybe 2 or so per city, if it wasn't for the 2 unhealth.

I'm currently playing around with 10 industry -> knowledge. There's a few rather lackluster virtues in industry even though most are strong, and spending 3 or 4 virtues on the 15 industry synergy is a bit too much.

Seems that need for more food makes farm strategies much stronger, favoring EctoPod and Purity. I think some late-game food buffs for the lesser non-food improvements might be in order. Not for academies, or biowells, that's too strong. But manufactories, domes, paddocks, and quarries look like good candidates. Also array, as a 1F-1S-1E alternative to academies?

 

[Xenotitan]

Eh, not everything needs food attached to it. People can learn to balance food improvements with other improvements. If the other improvements need a buff it can go to their other yields. Or an unhealth reduction to manufactories.

 

[sprang]

Eh, not everything needs food attached to it. People can learn to balance food improvements with other improvements. If the other improvements need a buff it can go to their other yields. Or an unhealth reduction to manufactories.

True, but needing to devote most of the flat land to farms to support a few specialty improvements reduces opportunities for city specialization. And some of the tile improvements I mentioned are pretty lackluster right now. Do you build domes or arrays?

 

[Cannonballninja]

I don't think Arrays ever were something that should be spammed. I just didn't think they were good enough to be something you would. They have a purpose though: boost orbital coverage. In some frontline cities, the extra orbital coverage could make a big difference in certain situations. Which is fine I think. It's not like we'd spam Forts (or Nodes in this case I suppose) everywhere either!

Domes are pretty bad though, I agree. I don't think they produce nearly enough culture to be worth using. If you want a culture specialist city, Terrascapes are the better option.

 

[Onylra]

Might is best, military is just so generally good/OP in this game that anyone without +20% affinity gain or +20% overall combat strength is doomed against someone who does. All other things being equal, by the time you've reached lvl 11 the Might player has almost certainly started on victory. You might (no pun) not need it to beat an AI, but against a human who has it you will struggle - so hard, not least because they'll always be coming at you with latest OP unit, every single tier. So if it's about the very 'best' virtue line, Might wins easily for me.

I tried not taking it in LMP once, and despite easily reaching victory countdown fastest (a research/bunker Harmony/Contact build) my friends tore me to shreds like pack of rabid Hyenas because my army was complete balls. Never again. You just can't fall behind in affinity, not by more than one level, and even then, depending on the level, say 13 or 15 for tier 3 tanks and ships, (a decent number of these units can completely destroy an army that it previously equally matched in one turn) you're playing with fire.

Industry... hmm, not sure anymore, some very good and some useless virtues, +25% on internal TRs is still great, but devalued alongside TRs overall (though the station trading bonus has increased in value along with the value of station trade), health per building and a couple of the + hammers/buildings bonuses are sick, top tier for sure. Verdict: have a Might/Industry hybrid and you could potentially be rocking the 'best' virtues.

I'll usually run Might/Knowledge, but that was with old-Elodie, and it was extremely cheap and exploitative. I think I'll take Might/Industry for another run and see how it goes, this time I'm rocking Engineers and PAC too. Hammers are good.

Definately Industry > Prosperity, all day, for PvP at least. Knowledge is situational and strategic, take in moderation now Elodie has been put in her place. Might, at least five virtues worth is not at all optional in the PvP meta (IMO!). Against the AI you can just fling whatever poop at the wall and it'll probably stick.

 

[Strategist83]

Some nonsense being posted here. Industry isn't flat out better than Prosperity. Even with the heavy nerf to Eudaimonia, Prosperity is the go-to tree for health. Eudaimonia applies to your entire empire, regardless of buildings. That means even new cities without infrastructure are producing less unhealth, effective immediately. Magnasanti is very powerful also but it takes longer to kick in. The question is therefore how efficiently the Prosperity player was able to use his speedier development (turn advantage).

Prosperity's free Colonist also remains very potent, nerfed trade routes or not. Prosperity is generally very reliant on having the room to plant many cities. If you are hemmed in by opponents or otherwise have limited space for cities then Industry shines better because each individual city is more powerful than usual in the long run. However, if the Prosperity player was able to blanket a section of the map in cities due to ample space, the greater efficiency of Industry cities aren't going to save that player.

 

[Strategist83]

Ilots of +1% Energy up to 100 Energy per turn, etc).

... also, these 'treasury' virtues are completely bollocks and need to be patched. It's amazing they went into the final game.

You're far, far better off investing your excess energy into more Workers or whatever instead of receiving that tiny fraction of interest. The only scenario where 'Investment' virtue could work is if you're playing multiplayer and are at war, saving up money for a potential surprise attack. Even in that optimal case, it's still dangerous just stockpiling energy rather than investing it, therefore developing slower.

 

[Severion]

Hey folks, long-time lurker here (first post). I've been playing with BE (Apollo) since it came out and I have a take on the early-game affinity choices. Personally, pre-patch I was filling out the bottom of the Prosperity tree, minus the 10% worker-speed bonus and then going for the +3 explorer expedition packs, THEN shifting over to Industry to go straight up the middle.

Post-patch, I'm finding the production hit I'm seeing without Industry is really killing my ability to get trade routes up and running early game... soo, I've taken to grabbing the middle three affinities of the first tier of Industry, THEN shifting over to Prosperity for the free colonist. After that, right now I'm experimenting to see which way to go.

Pre-patch, I was really gaining a benefit from the expedition pack boost (I played a lot of Purity, so I didn't get the boost from Tier 1 Supremacy) in that I could keep my explorers pushing outward and grabbing anything they could get their paws on. All those culture, science, affinity and population boosts really upped my game vs. the field. Also, I found the extra worker Prosperity affinity (1st tier) prior to the expedition pack boost (2nd tier) is overall pretty darn helpful. I'm surprised I haven't heard more people discussing leveraging that worker early game...

Post-patch, I'm not able to gain the expedition packs early enough to really leverage the benefit if I want to get my trade routes going (they were pretty timely before). Overall, I feel like I'm still trying to get my feet under me early game. I'd love to hear from anyone who feels like they've got a good handle on things post-patch as to how they're positioning themselves through affinity choices when playing on Apollo. Overall impression I have so far is the AIs are definitely more aggressive now and pushier with their settling. I feel like I really have to land grab as much as possible to establish myself - which slows down my tech, etc...

 

[Lucius_]

You don't hear much about the free worker because we all take the worker from the start options. With a worker on turn 1, this is usually good to get your capital in good shape and it can be sent with the colonist to the 2nd city. Then the capital can build another worker in about 2 turns so the free worker isn't that beneficial.

Without the starting worker, then yes that free one is much more important.

 

[player1 fanatic]

Industry looks to be new best overall virtue.

1. Value of Prosperity free colonist reduced because of TR nerf.

I still think that prosperity is best opening if you start with Artists, which are BUFFED compared to pre-patch.

On the other hand, if you opt for Aristocrats, Industry start would be the best, since you really want that extra gold to rush buy first colonist.

 

[sprang]

So what would make Industry less dominant? Suggestions?

Tweaks to Industry virtues:
1. Reduce Alt Markets to 4e/station tier?
2. ???
But overall, industry virtues seem to align well with the tree and any imbalances are from the tree as a whole, not from individual virtues. Few are truly awesome, its just that they are consistently good, are good from the early game, and continue to scale well. Whereas Might is hitor miss and Knowledge shines mid-to-late game.

Tweaks to Industry Tree:
Force players to take more of the 'junk' virtues early by making some of them pre-reqs for others. Like, keep the opener, but make the next choices +15%Wonders and +25%Orbital. That's two choices in line two, T1. Then line 3 T1 is +5 energy Capital or +1 Energy per basic resource. Standardized architecture is then T2, and is the 4th virtue you take. That'll slow industry down a bit.


Swap some virtues to another tree?

 

[Roxlimn]

I think Industry needs to stay the way it is to provide a gold standard against which other Virtue paths can be measured. It's consistent and has a good pace to it.

player1 fanatic:

I don't think Prosperity is good as a starter if you start with PAU and Artists. The Colonist appears way too early, and can be risky and awkward. With PAU and Aristocrats, the mixed raw output might allow a strict Knowledge Game easier, since it deals with Knowledge's Energy problem easily. Industry to Profiteering, then Knowledge might interesting. The strong Energy production can allow a strong, even expansion push through Colonist purchase, favoring Generators for tiles and food from buildings and Basic Resources.

 

[Xenotitan]

I think the strength of industry as a whole should stay the same. Balancing virtues within industry could still be a good change, however. Alternative Markets is a bit too good, and the bonus production to orbital units is pretty garbage.