1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

[R&F] Inevitable thread on "Flirtatious" and "Curmudgeon" straights-only traits

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Stringer1313, Feb 8, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Abaxial

    Abaxial Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages:
    148
    Gender:
    Male
    Forgive my ignorance, but what file is that? And can you make flirtatiousness go away by just editing it?
     
  2. shyPiano

    shyPiano Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2015
    Messages:
    304
    Given what has been said about Alexander in this thread, knowing this is really saddening to me.

    I don't really have anything against the agenda itself, making leaders like or dislike others due to gender is alright by me - my problem with it is that they tied it specifically with sexuality by calling it "Flirtatious" (and giving all those lines). Had the agenda worked exactly the same way, but with different flavor, and there wouldn't be half the controversy present here.
    As for gay agendas, refer to my statement above.

    It's a shame that the presence of LGBT is such a political issue, in an ideal world there really wouldn't be any problems one way or the other. But as long as such is the case, I find it really imprudent of Firaxis to explicitly include sexuality at all in the game. If adding an explicitly gay agenda is that bad of an issue, they really shouldn't even have touched the idea of an explicitly straight agenda either.
     
    evanaurora and Stringer1313 like this.
  3. FractalAdvocate

    FractalAdvocate Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2017
    Messages:
    37
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/removing-flirtatious-curmudgeon.628191/

    Wrote this down, realized it gets moddy for a discussion thread, and also I'd kinda like to make/have someone else make this an actual mod, so I went and made it it's own post. Caveat emptor and all that, it's worked for me fine so far, but I can't guarantee anything about it.
     
  4. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

    Joined:
    May 14, 2016
    Messages:
    3,903
    Location:
    Terok Nor
    Uh...Elizabeth I spent pretty much her entire reign endeavoring to prove that she was the equal to any man so foreign leaders didn't take advantage of her status as "the weaker sex." It's also why she kept herself in essentially a state of constant marriage negotiations so that the male leaders of Europe could dream they could conquer England by marrying their son off to her. Elizabeth's status as a woman was definitely a big deal, both domestically and abroad. And rather than go Cleopatra, she held herself up as an aloof prize that could never be won (it's not a coincidence she styled herself the Virgin Queen--she was definitely invoking Marian images, as well as the idea of courtly love [which is hypothetically supposed to be unconsummated]).

    It was less significant for Victoria because she was little more than a face on a postage stamp; the leaders of the UK at that time were male prime ministers.
     
  5. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    "Gay" is a new construct but having romantic or sexual feelings for someone of the same gender is not.
     
  6. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    I think you hit it on the head. Regardless of sexual orientation, people of all genders sometimes prefer to deal with one particular gender. Just take sexual desire out of it. A reasonable compromise would be to rename the traits and descriptions.
     
  7. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2006
    Messages:
    8,836
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Upon further reflection I have no problem with Firaxis wanting to "shake things up" with diplomacy. I bet many of the people complaining about this also complain because the games are too peaceful and they are never attacked. Which do you want? I have no problem with these 2 agendas in theory. They just seem a little childish, and I fear they are trying to turn the Civilization games in the Sims. It seems like something you'd see out of the Sims. Civilization 6: Rise and Fall of the Sims. I would go with something similar, but drop the flirtatious name.
     
    SammyKhalifa likes this.
  8. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    Again as the OP I have absolutely zero problem with Firaxis wanting to shake things up with diplomacy, and for creating new agenda traits, even those based on immutable characteristics. It presents a challenge and also reflects historical reality, there being all sorts of dumb reasons leaders hated each other. For example I have no problem with Victoria's agenda which you can never satisfy if you didn't start on her home continent.

    It's just that these traits are stupidly heteronormative and demeaning and can easily be replaced with other things.
     
  9. outlaw22

    outlaw22 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2014
    Messages:
    23
    Next expansion will add a medical district that allows sex changes in the modern era.
     
    Drakul and Karpius like this.
  10. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,782
    Location:
    Canada
    Elizabeth is a bit of a curmudgeon then
     
    nzcamel and Returning Lurker like this.
  11. JacquesBquick

    JacquesBquick Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    i think something as simple as changing "Flirtatious" to "Socialite" or "Progressive" would be a simple enough of a fix. Its open-ended enough to mean whatever you want. Curmudgeon doesn't really have specific heteronormative context. Its perfectly reasonable to have leaders only respecting leaders of their same sex (not like, in life, but as a game mechanic that is also representative of history and 'leader agendas').

    flirtatious is explicitly heterosexual in this application, and thus excludes via its addition. Change the name of the agenda to something more benign and its fine to me. I sent a private message on reddit to a community manager indicating this opinion as well earlier today, but thank you for als omaking a thread here about it.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  12. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2014
    Messages:
    674
    I like the "Socialite" suggestion to replace Flirtatious. I could easily buy into the notion that since we are in a heteronormative world, playing to heteronormativity by flirting with the opposite sex can be a thing. And then they can say "Fraternal/Sororal" to mean only likes dealing with men, only likes dealing with women (and just make it so that only male leaders can get fraternal and only female leaders can get sororal).
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  13. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,782
    Location:
    Canada
    With the enhancements to alliances I can't help but think this is supposed to simulate marriage alliances, which were between a man and a woman. Some rulers were enthusiastic about this option and some, like Elizabeth, we're not.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  14. Kwami

    Kwami Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    964
    You'll have to change more than just the names. The descriptions and dialogues also need to change.

    In fact, let's just stop basing agendas on gender. It's a poor concept with no real value.

    EDIT: And actually, curmudgeon isn't OK, either. Since when are all curmudgeons anti-female or anti-male or whatever? That's total nonsense. That agenda should change, too.
     
    Zaarin likes this.
  15. JacquesBquick

    JacquesBquick Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    yeah i hear you, i don't think any of us asked for these agendas and be very happy to see a total mea culpa with their deletion altogether. let people mod that stuff in if they want it.
     
  16. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2004
    Messages:
    7,581
    Location:
    France
    I'm not going to give my opinion about that feature itself, as for me the whole agenda system needs to be reworked (ie "a nation has no friends, only interests"), but in that special topic, and after reading some complaints, note that this is from the game's code:

    Code:
    <Where LeaderType="LEADER_ALEXANDER"/>
    <Set>
    <SameSexPercentage>50</SameSexPercentage>
    </Set>
     
  17. miaasma

    miaasma Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    581
    help help philip II is flirting with me
     
    Civrinn and nzcamel like this.
  18. Photi

    Photi Governor

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2002
    Messages:
    700
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Washington
    Haven't had a chance to play R&F yet, but i like the sound of these new agendas. I actually think they act (to an extent) as equalizers with the player. There's probably more than few players around here who alter their behavior against the AI based on AI attractiveness, so it is only fair the AI can potentially reciprocate or otherwise bias their own gameplay.
     
    nzcamel likes this.
  19. Kwami

    Kwami Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2010
    Messages:
    964
    Is that code used for anything, though? Has anyone seen a gay leader with the flirtatious or curmudgeon agenda?
     
  20. JacquesBquick

    JacquesBquick Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Gender:
    Male
    oh wow, so if that's the case, does that mean alexander has a even chance at getting a flirtatious agenda for male leaders? that would solve my complaint, i just really didn't think they'd include something like that!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Ebates: Get Paid to Shop