[R&F] Inevitable thread on "Flirtatious" and "Curmudgeon" straights-only traits

[Archon_Wing]

Then why does it matter if there isn't a counter play to their agenda?

Maybe so it isn't so one sided towards conquest.

 

[nzcamel]

I'm just glad they're adding even more hidden agendas. I hope Teddy & Gandhi roll their not so hidden agendas less often with these changes!

 

[Kwami]

I'm just glad they're adding even more hidden agendas. I hope Teddy & Gandhi roll their not so hidden agendas less often with these changes!

Teddy and Gandhi still have their hidden agenda preferences. In fact, most leaders have preferences now because of the new agendas, making the hidden agenda system even less random than before. Quite silly, really.

I'm rather disappointed that Firaxis hasn't responded at all to the complaints about the new agendas.

 

[nzcamel]

Teddy and Gandhi still have their hidden agenda preferences.

Are they at the same high percentage as they were before?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I'm sorry but I felt this bit needed repeating just for the hilarity of the mental image...seductive breadstick eating is the key to any woman's heart.

Haha! That said, and this applies for both genders/people in general: the same words/actions done by someone already viewed as very attractive are routinely forgiven/viewed positively outright compared to being negative or even repulsive when someone isn't attractive. What causes attraction and how much is a significant variable.

I'm not sure this is a good thing to model in Civ though, sounds like the kind of detail best saved for other genres...

 

[Bad Wolf]

Imagine a pangea with a male curmudgeon and all females.

CLEO: I declare war on Alex.

TOMY: #MeToo

CATHY: #MeToo

VICKY: #MeToo

CERSEI, er, GORGO: Jump on the bandwagon I've been at war with him since before we discovered writing.

I do think it might cause some stirr among some people if Saladin turned out to be gay in one game, even if it was random.

Ironically Saladin probably would have had an easier time having same-sex attachments than a modern day Muslim leader would.

 

[Uberfrog]

UPDATE

I don't know if anyone else has seen this, but Eurogamer have covered this issue, and asked Firaxis to comment. It appears Firaxis may be addressing this issue in an upcoming patch. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-16-civ-6s-sexist-leaders-are-getting-tweaked

The relevant quote:-

So we asked Firaxis about it, and a spokesperson told Eurogamer that while it didn't have an official comment to make, the studio was aware of the discussion amongst fans and that it would be addressed soon in an update to the game. Firaxis did not give an indication of when that would be, or which specific complaints it would address, or how it would do so.

 

[Kwami]

Well, it's something. I just hope that they take the easy route and remove the terrible agendas instead of making everything worse.

 

[Karpius]

I don't know if anyone else has seen this, but Eurogamer have covered this issue, and asked Firaxis to comment. It appears Firaxis may be addressing this issue in an upcoming patch. Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-02-16-civ-6s-sexist-leaders-are-getting-tweaked

Awww man! I still haven't had Cleo or Gitarja come on to me yet! No fair!!!

 

[God of Kings]

There should be the Naïve hidden agenda, who are extremely easy to please, no matter the playstyle.

There should also be the Judgmental hidden agenda, whose diplomatic modifiers are doubled, both positive and negative.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Generically speaking, I don't think I would have an issue with agendas the player "can't do anything about" if those ones were minor modifiers compared to the others.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

I'm not a big fan of agendas that you really have no way to avoid

I posted this in another thread but I thought I should break this out and hopefully get the developer's attention. So the context is that apparently, the new "Flirtatious" trait means the leader likes leaders of the opposite sex and "Curmudgeon" means they do not like leaders of the opposite sex (because they don't have time for dalliances or whatever).

Ts really, really backwards and disappointing that these traits would automatically assume every leader is straight. (Yes, yes, cue the "politically correct"-police-police.) One thing that makes Civilization VI shine for me is how forward-thinking (relative to the gaming industry, which is still largely driven by the needs of 13-year old straight teenage boys) it has been with its depiction of female leaders: its abundance of female leaders, abundance of female GPs (though I would really like to see a female GP icon for God's sake), and most importantly that none of the female leaders are depicted disrespectfully or as sex objects (except Cleopatra, though she is intentionally using her sex appeal). This is especially absurd given that some leaders, at least Alexander, were known to have same-sex dalliances.

I am not saying that there must be the same # of bi/gay leaders as straight leaders - that would be equally absurd. But if they even tossed in a random 5-10% chance that a leader were bi and gay, to reflect real life, that would not be so hard. (And if this is in fact what has happened I'd love to be told so.) And if they are so afraid of offending anti-gay people then they should remove this silly trait forever.

I actually have no problem with traits based on immutable characteristics, such as Victoria liking you only if you share the same home continent. God knows many civilizations had totally irrational likes and dislikes based on culture, racism, whatever. But to lock a trait down based on gender is just beyond the point of silly.

I don't understand why they would involve sexuality at all in this game. In history, yes there were people who were gay or gay-ish but it's extremely rare. So rare that it's notable when it does happen. Why even bring that up? Frankly I'm getting really tired of developers forcing gayness into their games. Bioware games especially have become bad at this. I have no problem with people being gay but don't force it down my throat. (no pun intended) I think that it's completely accurate for leaders to judge you on based on your sex because that's completely accurate throughout history. It's bordering on people that judge history based on todays ideals, which is absurd. I just don't see what it adds to a game.

 

[Kwami]

I'm not a big fan of agendas that you really have no way to avoid

I don't understand why they would involve sexuality at all in this game. In history, yes there were people who were gay or gay-ish but it's extremely rare. So rare that it's notable when it does happen. Why even bring that up? Frankly I'm getting really tired of developers forcing gayness into their games. Bioware games especially have become bad at this. I have no problem with people being gay but don't force it down my throat. (no pun intended) I think that it's completely accurate for leaders to judge you on based on your sex because that's completely accurate throughout history. It's bordering on people that judge history based on todays ideals, which is absurd. I just don't see what it adds to a game.

1. Being gay isn't a political thing. Nobody's shoving anything anywhere. Get over it.

2. "Flirtatious" and "Curmudgeon" are terrible agendas. With their current implementations, better names would be "Creepy" and "Sexist". But, obviously those names wouldn't work in the game. So, best to just remove them and come up with something else.

 

[conorbebe]

Just saw the article about the issue. Glad Firaxis plan to address this. I know it could easily be construed as SJW political agenda, but although the problem is small and perhaps even a little petty, I think we can all at least agree that these agendas don’t add anything interesting to diplomacy and are ultimately unnecessarily “problematic”.

 

[Thormodr]

Awww man! I still haven't had Cleo or Gitarja come on to me yet! No fair!!!

Oh I have. Gitarja is kind of cringeworthy. Lol.

Aminitore with her cooing is definitely worse, though.

 

[Brian LeClaire]

1. Being gay isn't a political thing. Nobody's shoving anything anywhere. Get over it.

2. "Flirtatious" and "Curmudgeon" are terrible agendas. With their current implementations, better names would be "Creepy" and "Sexist". But, obviously those names wouldn't work in the game. So, best to just remove them and come up with something else.

1. I didn't say anything about gayness being political so get over it.
2. That's your opinion, which I'm not interested in.
3. You're obviously not much of a history buff

 

[miaasma]

I'm not a big fan of agendas that you really have no way to avoid

I don't understand why they would involve sexuality at all in this game. In history, yes there were people who were gay or gay-ish but it's extremely rare. So rare that it's notable when it does happen. Why even bring that up? Frankly I'm getting really tired of developers forcing gayness into their games. Bioware games especially have become bad at this. I have no problem with people being gay but don't force it down my throat. (no pun intended) I think that it's completely accurate for leaders to judge you on based on your sex because that's completely accurate throughout history. It's bordering on people that judge history based on todays ideals, which is absurd. I just don't see what it adds to a game.

i was on board until you wrote "frankly i'm getting really tired of developers forcing gayness into their games", and then the post just got worse with every word

to write something like this you really have to be tone deaf

and if there's something the world certainly doesn't need it's tone deaf self-described "history buffs"

 

[Morningcalm]

Awww man! I still haven't had Cleo or Gitarja come on to me yet! No fair!!!

Frankly, I hope they remove them. The Flirtatious and Curmudgeon agendas are not good from a gameplay or historical perspective. Glad we have news Firaxis plans to address this in some form for a time least. (Also, re: the screenshot of Tomyris in the article, why on earth would Tomyris have the Flirtatious Agenda? She should have the opposite given her dislike for Cyrus' marriage proposal).

 

[Karpius]

Frankly, I hope they remove them. The Flirtatious and Curmudgeon agendas are not good from a gameplay or historical perspective. Glad we have news Firaxis plans to address this in some form for a time least. (Also, re: the screenshot of Tomyris in the article, why on earth would Tomyris have the Flirtatious Agenda? She should have the opposite given her dislike for Cyrus' marriage proposal).

These agendas don't bother me because I never look at these leaders (or their civs) from a historical perspective anyway. They are fictional characters based on historical figures and nothing more. Sort of like Lincoln the Vampire Slayer from that movie from a few years back.

 

[Mr.JamblesAlpha]

no

i was on board until you wrote "frankly i'm getting really tired of developers forcing gayness into their games", and then the post just got worse with every word

to write something like this you really have to be tone deaf

and if there's something the world certainly doesn't need it's tone deaf self-described "history buffs"

he has an opinion, it is some thing expletive like you force down on others as you are doing now. no "gayness" was forced here tho just bad wording. Bioware dose/did have a agenda to push "forward thinking" in their games.