Infernal! (Need to be more aggressive)

[blaise bailey]

In short
I spawned the Infernal next to Enthe the white

The Infernal sat there with one city for a few hundred years... then built one more (whilst constantly Furious with enthe)

Enthe was up for the takings, he was not as large as he should have been as the barbarian lich guy had held him back

It just annoyed me how they just sat back and did nothing

Infernal are now pretty much dead only ever having 3 cities whilst being killed by another human on hotseat


I dunno what does everyone else think ?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, thats why I gave Hyborem the BARBARIAN/EXPANSIVE/FALLOW/SUMMONER/AGGRESSIVE/ARCANE/CHARISMATIC/RAIDERS/MAGIC_RESISTANT/INGENUITY/FINANCIAL/ORGANIZED/SPIRITUAL traits (still to be lost at the Hyborem unit's death), gave the Hyborem unit Flying, made Infernal cities start at size 6 instead of 3, gave the Gela 2 entropy affinity instead of 2 unholy strength, etc.

The reason Hyborem is weak is that his score is low. When an AI's score is too low, it assumes that it can't do anything but turtle up.

Barbatos should not be holding Hyborem back. He has the Barbarian trait, so unless he is at least 50% stronger than the next best player (in which case you probably wouldn't be complaining about how poorly he is doing), then he is at peace with the barbs. Barbatos should make him expand more easily. (or were you saying that Ethne wasn't that large? Ethne is a She. Of course, she has the Monk UU that is very strong vs demons, so she might not have been the best first target.)

 

[blaise bailey]

thanks for the reply

I was playing noble, would that also be a factor

Also..I was under the impression that Infernal (along with Hyborem) started with small demon army.. but when my friend attacked him eventually he had very little else in his cities (each city of the 3 cities only having around 2 or 3 units in it) Not to say that Hyborem himself is not hard to kill

 

[MagisterCultuum]

He starts with Hyborem, 2 longbowmen with mobility1, 2 sect of the flies with iron weapons and mobility1, a worker (with demon, but that would be applied by default now anyway so it doesn't matter that much), an imp with mobility1, 3 manes, and a settler with mobilty1 demon, sentry1 and sentry 2 (I think that this code hasn't been updated in a while, and that giving it only the starting settler bonus would be better)

That is a small demon army, emphasis on small (depending on when he arrives it may or may not be very useful)

Also, I think that the AI governor tend to try to make the cities collect enough food, even though food is completely useless with the fallow trait (except maybe when combined with the conquest civic). That would mean they get less production than they should. (I think I may have read that a recent patch fixed this though)

 

[frenzyslave]

Hyborem is a strange one. Had him spawn in game, tried to find him by buying everyones map, still no sign where he is. 200 turns later, i bump into him (well, one of his wandering units) in Sheaim turf. 75 turns later when laying the boff into the malakim, over wanders hyborem and he founds dis. yep, he founds his first city 275 (abouts) years later after he spawns . Seems he preferred to quake in his boots. Never had that happen to me before...

 

[skallben]

Also, I think that the AI governor tend to try to make the cities collect enough food, even though food is completely useless with the fallow trait (except maybe when combined with the conquest civic). That would mean they get less production than they should. (I think I may have read that a recent patch fixed this though)

Yep, this I have observed aswell. This is the biggest reason Infernals are many times more powerful in the hands of a human who have workers building and the cities working workshops and mines.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I don't think an AI could ever be programmed to play Hyboream well. They start so slowly, and they require some rather strange logic to boom. In a nutshell, they need evil units to die so they can power up their cities and expand. They also need to expand to acquire hapiness resources. I find myself sitting on my chair thinking when I play as them, but definitely, once the get rolling, Erebus surely goes to hell.

 

[cephalo]

Also, if you don't have happiness resources, conquering cities just ruins your economy as they are almost guaranteed to be 100% unhappy forever, and all you get is a maintenance bill. You kinda have to raze all the cities and have a settler ready to take it's place so you can have demonic citizens. The AI would have to be completely rewritten basically.

 

[it-ogo]

Yeah, Hyborem is especially in need of unusual strategy. Usually when he came he can (and he should) wage successfull war against most civs with few very strong (for that time) units. He must select acceptable enemy and carefully manipulate with his own units. That is what AI was never able to do.

I propose for Infernals to replace war weariness with "peace weariness" - let demonic citizens suffer from peace unhappiness - all other ways of unhappiness are removed as it is now. And adjust AI preferences correspondingly.

 

[kumquatelvis]

It would be nice if the fallow trait caused all tiles to produce zero food (or -10, whatever is easier to program). That way the AI couldn't try to optimize for food.

 

[OzzyKP]

Also, if you don't have happiness resources, conquering cities just ruins your economy as they are almost guaranteed to be 100% unhappy forever, and all you get is a maintenance bill. You kinda have to raze all the cities and have a settler ready to take it's place so you can have demonic citizens. The AI would have to be completely rewritten basically.

I thought the new patch had an Infernal building that eliminated all unhappiness and unhealthiness.

 

[it-ogo]

It would be nice if the fallow trait caused all tiles to produce zero food (or -10, whatever is easier to program). That way the AI couldn't try to optimize for food.

...but sometimes you may want to adopt conquest or produce workers/settlers...

 

[cephalo]

We can all agree that Hyborem can't really survive with normal AI tricks, but I also want to say that making a new AI for Hyborem is definately worth the work involved. That would be a huge improvement for the mod to make Hyborem really scary and effective. He should demand constant warfare from any evil civ, or else he will declare war on them himself.

To simplify things, it might be good to simply not allow the Infernals to capture cities, only raze. This way the AI can assume that all cities are demonic cities, and not suffer war weariness or other complications arising from the need of happiness. Conversely, it should only be possible for anyone else to raze a city with demonic citizens. It should be fairly simple to make a pure war machine AI.

 

[Alzara]

Yeah I was sure that hyborem has no unhapiness or unhealthiness too.

In reference to his AI, I always used to summon hyborem, thinking I would have a powerful ally to help me later in the game. However, hes useless even if I rush infernal pact as quickly as possible. Basically he just acts as a hell terrain generator.

For this reason I've started to use compound enforced so he can't enter the world. I think in his present state Hyborem hurts the mood of the game rather than adding to it.

Al

 

[cephalo]

Yeah I was sure that hyborem has no unhapiness or unhealthiness too.

In the last game I played as Hyborem, patch 'g', the Demonic Citizens building only appears in cities that are settled. If you capture a giant city, it is pretty much unusable until you can use lots of manes to build all the happiness buildings.

 

[xienwolf]

Could also make Infernal able to Build Demonic Citizens for 1

 

[cephalo]

Could also make Infernal able to Build Demonic Citizens for 1

That's one possible solution, although it does make sense that they would be more interested in razing the city and starting from scratch. Manes aren't always easy to come by however. I think that low level 'good' units should have a small chance of becoming a mane. I'm sure that not everyone in Bannor is really good.

 

[Ksi]

Yes the capturing is bugged. You should gain the demontic citizens either right away or by the time the population is 100% infernal. I imagine it as the infernals slaying the city or some weird ritual stealing their souls. Also last time I played (g) manes were messed up because I razed a size 8 city (of Veil Sheaim) and got 1.

Edit: Does it really make sense captured cities use no food yet can revolt etc? If they are not eating, they are under the demons control.

 

[Nimbus]

Another alternative would be to make Manes have a spell like a priest that lets them sacrifice themselves to make a Demonic Citizens Building in a newly captured town.

 

[Darkheart]

It's strange how most of the really funny screenshots in FFH2 involve either Hyborem or Orthus. I think it's because they are so heralded as "Bringers of Doom" ,that when they do appear, we are expecting BIG things!

Giving Infernals/Hyborem more traits and/or promos is a stop gap, but Infernals have an almost a reciporical mechanic to most civs, and so really should not be governed by the same AI. I think It-ogo's peace weariness idea is brilliant, as, to me, it sort of sums them up. What are they doing here if NOT to bring war and destruction to Erebus?

Maybe, when the dust finally settles, and FFH is finally complete. Maybe.....