Infernal! (Need to be more aggressive)

[Ksi]

I do not agree with the peace mechanic. It sounds good in theory but it will crush them. Not only does it (1) make an already weak civ weaker and (2) subject them to unhappiness, but it is so against their flavor. Hyborem himself says although brute force is great, seduction and deception are just as good.

Why force the infernals to war when they have so much cunning? If infernals are summoned late (as they usually are) it would make an already weak civ weaker as everyone is much stronger than them and they cannot war.

So unless they are getting a huge boost, it is a terrible idea.

 

[it-ogo]

Give Hyborem himself the ability "Demonize citizens". Half population is lost and go to serve Mercurians if they are.

 

[Ksi]

For veil worshippers too?

 

[it-ogo]

Well, following present logic population should differ depending on the alignment of civ it was captured from. But I am afraid it is too difficult to code. There are too many conventional things to pay attention to this. In any case it is all adjustable.

BTW I dont think that Infernals are weak now with demonic sitizens. With human player they are usually devastating. Unless they are summoned too late by outsider civ and killed very fast.

And their power depends on map size and many other things.

 

[cephalo]

Why force the infernals to war when they have so much cunning?

Heheh, Fictionally I think it would a tough sell for Hyborem to pretend that he's not here to destroy the world and everyone in it. He shows up, the war is on.

"Hey, I know I'm not the most handsome new kid in town, but you aren't going to hold that against me, right pal? C'mon, lets be friendssss!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Well, I'd assume he has some ways to hide his true appearance, or at least some deceptively good looking go-betweens to handle negotiations for him. Most of his diplomacy would probably actually be handled by invisible lesser demons that inaudibly whisper in the ears of mortals, like the feathered serpent in the most recently posted excerpt from the Tale of Saverous.

 

[Ksi]

I agree with Magister. He can also use deception to whisper into the ears or mortals, setting them against each other. As they slaughter each other his forces grow stronger with every soul. Do you really think the infernal would send Hyborem, all horns and scales to tempt the races?

I don't know how Hyborem fairs in your modmod Magister but I am guessing due to the traits he is much better at causing an impact. I am not quite sure if he should be that strong in FFH but the demontic citizens should atleast apply to 100% infernal cities and the manes be better adjusted so the infernals stand a late-game chance. I think incentives for agressive (more manes or something) would be much better than sanctions (peace unhappiness) as it is not always viable -- or in the infernals flavor to be constantly at war if seduction is an option.

On Immortal I can never get him to cause an impact. And switching to him is already very hard.

 

[cephalo]

Well, I'd assume he has some ways to hide his true appearance, or at least some deceptively good looking go-betweens to handle negotiations for him. Most of his diplomacy would probably actually be handled by invisible lesser demons that inaudibly whisper in the ears of mortals, like the feathered serpent in the most recently posted excerpt from the Tale of Saverous.

Well, anyone who might send a hunter and his talking bird thataway would no doubt find that state of affairs extremely alarming...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, but do you think they would be allowed to return home to tell the tale?

If so, more subtle demons would likely get there first to make sure no one believes him. His story would probably sound too sensational, so he might be discredited as a liar or a lunatic. Would you believe someone who claims that you can literally walk a few miles and inter hell, and who claims to have entered it and come home safely?


I'm thinking that maybe Hyborem should get some HN (and possibly invisible) UUs to help him kill off some evil units and get himself established early on. Perhaps his entire starting army should be HN (except that that would mean he couldn't capture cities, and I doubt that the AI would know to reveal nationality first.) Also, Esus units really need to provide manes (and Empyrean units angels. I fixed this early on, but I don't think Kael has yet)

 

[Darkheart]

I'm thinking that it's the spread of AV religion that works through subtleness, deception and beguilement. When Big H and his merry band turn up.... all deals are off.

If you make Infernals powerful enough to survive a late game appearance, what happens when someone rushes him? On thinking about it, Ksi, a peace weariness mechanic could drive him into a suicidal war, Hyborem after all isn't stupid. But I think, like Cephalo, Infernals should be considered as a war machine rather than a trading partner.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't think that the AI could understand peace-weariness. It would not fix anything by itself, and the AI changes that could make it work could work just as well without it.

 

[Darkheart]

Yeah, the idea was to develop some form of mechanic that would drive Infernals to war, rather than peaceful co-existance.

Change AI was the best solution.

 

[Darkheart]

Just had a thought.....

Make it so that the infernal grimiore gives Infernals added power, possibly hyper-production bonus, or something that enables a game victory, or Basium death maybe, so that Hyborem is seeking something.

Also the civ that possess the Inf Grim has a certain power over Hyb, ie he cannot declare war on them. Thus he needs HN units to capture the Grimoire.

it would give him a mission other than simple destruction, but the opportunity for player abuse here is high.

I'll leave that down to the creations of your own sordid imaginations.

Edit: rather than HN. A mechanism that allows him to disguise his units under the flag of another civ..... making for Inf grim causing extreme paranoia.

 

[unclethrill]

I find that the only thing I get out of Hyb. entering the world is the need to have one of my mages spend the rest of the game sanctifying land.

 

[Mailbox]

One thing I don't like about Hyborem is that the starting settler always founds a city no matter where he begins, even if the human player wants to control the Infernals. It might be nice if the Infernals didn't get a settler until the second turn or didn't get a settler at all, forcing them to go to war against a good civilization (Maybe give the first city that they capture/found get the demonic citizens building?).

 

[Darkheart]

Sitting here bored (I currently have a broken leg... sitting isn't optional) I thought I'd flesh out the idea I started on above.

World wonder option for Infernal Grimoire appears at the same time as Infernals, who cannot then build it. When it's built it gives 1 or even 2 free techs (one tech not being a prereq for 2nd) and infernals cannot declare war on the possessing civ. Possibly also an alignment change, one step towards evil. It must be carried at all times (possibly only a disciple unit) but can be passed to others. The current owner cannot enter lake, mountains or be carried by a transport, (To stop it from being sailed around the North pole).

But Inf Grim is a curse, worth getting for the techs, and protection against a potentially raging Hyb, but each turn there is a chance (small), that one of your units will be subverted and given a hidden promotion "watcher". Loyalty would help prevent this but should not be 100%. The unit functions and behaves normally, with no external sign to the owning player. Slowly, the longer the Inf Grim is owned, the more watchers are subverted. Infernal player can see everything the watcher sees.

Should the Inf Grim be brought within say, 2 squares of a watcher, the infernal player has an option to "grab" using a world spell mechanism. at this point all watchers become HN and can freely attack the carrier, should they succeed, they now possess the grimoire and must take it to infernal cultural borders (or possibly Hyb himself). Once this criteria is achieved, Infernals Will declare war on previous owner, for having the audacity to summon it in the first place.

Infernal Possesion of Grim allows any of above stated benefits. Note this mechanism may also be used as a way of raising hyborem again should he be dead.

It's probably got huge AI holes in it, I just thought it sounded fun!

 

[eerr]

the infernal spawn needs some incentive for ashen veil civs to attack, so they get lots of manes

like maybe evil civs units get stigmata for a duration of 1/4 the armageddon counter

 

[xienwolf]

Main reason Peace Weariness won't be such a hot idea is that the Infernal either don't care about unhappy (Demonic Citizens) or are already crippled by it (captured cities). So it would change very little.

 

[xienwolf]

Another thing that is a touch odd about the Infernal is that they are allowed to run all the specialists they have slots for. This means HUGE output of Great People.

Since it makes little sense for Demons to be producing Great Works, Infernal could get a UU replacement for each Great Person type that is used to augment their power level. Then they can still start fairly weak, but will quickly ramp up. Either the ability to cast Recruit to just plain boost the army or something else that is impressive to give them a leg up can easily replace each Great Person type.

 

[Ksi]

I do not know, I am sure hell can make amazing works of art. If something over here is good we say it is "d'enfer" ! C'est une chanson d'enfer !