Infiltration by Rogue

[DC0]

I brought my Rogue unit into well developed capital city of another civ with intention to infiltrate it and gain many espionage points. However, this time there is no such option. Only Perform Trade Mission, Sabotage and Steal Plans. Why?
Target city has: Palisade, city defense 100%, 3 Ambusher units stationed there.

What should be done to infiltrate city?

 

[KaTiON_PT]

If I recall correctly the earliest unit which can infiltrate and gain espionage points is the Spy, unlocked at alphabet writing.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes infiltrate to gain espionage points is only available to the Spy and Diplomat lines. The latter has not yet been implemented. Mostly due to the errors on Cannibalism and Human Sacrifice which use the same game mechanic.

 

[Thunderbrd]

So when was that removed from the Criminals then? I'll have to check to see why it's not working. It used to function fine and they are setup to be able to in the xml. Or were when I had completed them.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I did not know it was on criminals. Why would it? Except for a few special ones it is like adding "cause crime" to subdued animals, it is outside what you would expect.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I did not know it was on criminals. Why would it? Except for a few special ones it is like adding "cause crime" to subdued animals, it is outside what you would expect.

Criminals are often there just to get information from the underbelly of the city. An exile may wish to try to buy his way back into the graces of his people, for example, by bringing back knowledge of who their nearby rivals are and how they live. A russian mobster here in the US is probably ALSO a spy for the russian government, sending back information earned by their place in the underworld of crime.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Criminals are often there just to get information from the underbelly of the city. An exile may wish to try to buy his way back into the graces of his people, for example, by bringing back knowledge of who their nearby rivals are and how they live. A russian mobster here in the US is probably ALSO a spy for the russian government, sending back information earned by their place in the underworld of crime.

Maybe in the modern era but I doubt it existed much before.

If it is available on all criminals then there is a big problem. Maybe we just get rid of Spies altogether,

 

[Thunderbrd]

Maybe in the modern era but I doubt it existed much before.

If it is available on all criminals then there is a big problem. Maybe we just get rid of Spies altogether,

Spies should be better at it - and much cheaper to train. But last I tried using spies it was impossible to get them to work. They would all get revealed and die as soon as they moved into a neighboring city. Tens of them, none surviving even one round to do a thing.

I don't see it as a big problem at all. That's like claiming that only axemen should be necessary to use to fight with.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Spies should be better at it - and much cheaper to train. But last I tried using spies it was impossible to get them to work. They would all get revealed and die as soon as they moved into a neighboring city. Tens of them, none surviving even one round to do a thing.

That means someone broke the spy system. Probably the reveal on them. Or maybe the invisibility types. And it probably wont get fixed. Just like the disease system broke religions and criminal system broke hidden nationality.

I don't see it as a big problem at all. That's like claiming that only axemen should be necessary to use to fight with.

Fighting units fight and there are many types of fighting units. Why not put "causes disease" on the subdued animals? It makes as much as much sense or maybe more than giving criminals spy functions. But then I think the whole criminal system is broken to the point that I start to feel C2C is beyond saving.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

As I said discussing this puts me off C2C but if I were to design the crime system based on what we know now I would

1. Keep the crime property and anti crime units as they are but not the buildings or units.
   
   
2. Units could not be built and could not move. Alternately they could be replaced by Settled Specialists.
   
   
3. Diplomats and Spies can buy criminals in foreign cities based on the crime level of that city. Basically they can encourage crime.
   
   
4. Buildings for each crime would be split into two. One which allows for feed back of crime adding some crime while the crime level is between to limits. The other would only allow foreign spies and diplomats to buy the criminal.

 

[Yudishtira]

In SVN10208 rogues have a mission when in foreign cities to gain espionage points. A lot of EP to be precise - more than 3 times the gold of their dodgy merch mission.

The amount seems too much by more than half, but I'm all for crims having the mission. If anything it makes more sense than the buildings in your cities that accumulate EP - risk-free etc. The earlier you have units interacting with EP, the better for the game.

I don't know why DC0 is suddenly no longer getting it. Is there some minimum level of Insidiousness vs Investigation needed?

 

[Thunderbrd]

As I said discussing this puts me off C2C but if I were to design the crime system based on what we know now I would

1. Keep the crime property and anti crime units as they are but not the buildings or units.
   
   
2. Units could not be built and could not move. Alternately they could be replaced by Settled Specialists.
   
   
3. Diplomats and Spies can buy criminals in foreign cities based on the crime level of that city. Basically they can encourage crime.
   
   
4. Buildings for each crime would be split into two. One which allows for feed back of crime adding some crime while the crime level is between to limits. The other would only allow foreign spies and diplomats to buy the criminal.

Why do you always want to rethink a completed project? This is why we get nothing done. Well... it's the big part of why I've lost motivation. I personally love the criminals as they are. Sure I designed them but I guess in that I owe everyone a big huge apology for having my own opinion and hijacking the mod. I'll make sure to stay out of it from here.

Honestly, though, I just don't get what problems you're trying to solve.

 

[Toffer90]

I have personally nothing against the criminal aspect of C2C, though there's always room for improvements on all aspects of the mod.

You got nothing to apologize for TB, differences in opinion should be discussed and respected, not quarreled over.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'm just frustrated that it should be suggested to differ opinion and direction THAT deeply. Why not just write off the last few years of development entirely, as that's what's just been proposed.

 

[Toffer90]

I did not understand what DH said to be a proposal, more of an hypothetical "if I were to, then it would be like this and that" statement of opinion.
Similar to a "if I could go back in time I would have done this and that instead" statement.

A statement that, as I understood it, did not carry any real intention to actually do what was stated.
We both know DH respects your contributions and that he would not be so cheeky as to change it to such an extent without your consent.

 

[Thunderbrd]

We both know DH respects your contributions and that he would not be so cheeky as to change it to such an extent without your consent.

I know that but it sorrows me deeply to think that his distaste for my efforts goes this deep.

 

[Toffer90]

I know that but it sorrows me deeply to think that his distaste for my efforts goes this deep.

I don't think that is a correct assessement, I think DH is simply being blunt and honest in a way that makes the impression of distaste worse than what it actually is.

I can't speak for DH though.

 

[Thunderbrd]

But then I think the whole criminal system is broken to the point that I start to feel C2C is beyond saving.

This goes a bit beyond blunt.

Why not put "causes disease" on the subdued animals?

That's actually a very good idea for some animals to have a disease spread factor and I've considered it a part of a potential plan for a while.

It makes as much as much sense or maybe more than giving criminals spy functions.

The whole original point of criminals as SO introduced them was to have them upgrade to and from spies and have some spy functions as a combat potential unit. There are numerous things they don't and can never overlap with spies on. Spies can never ever be seen, though they can be caught and autokilled when they are. Criminals can get caught too but they get a fighting chance to resist the arrest. They're also more expensive and should be less desirable to use in spy roles because they aren't as good at them and are better at other things. But as a final act in a city, gathering what info they can about the enemy before returning home seems quite appropriate for what they are.

A good player can completely keep all criminals from entering their cities, placing defenses and developed visibility units in the way to keep it from being possible at all. A spy can always get through if the game balance regarding catching them isn't somehow out of whack - which I've been told it isn't completely broken, as when I complained about my last attempt to use spies repeatedly, someone said they were able to use them effectively on the latest version. I haven't confirmed this yet. The version where this happened to me is quite a few versions ago - it was in one of the MP games that was frozen on the version it was on as an update would've broken it.

This argument is like saying, "why should spies be able to send cities into revolt... shouldn't reducing the defenses of the city be entirely the domain of siege weapons?" This is certainly one of the spies most powerful abilities and something no other unit can do. They also become repetitive mini-nukes and other horrible things later in the game. Spies have plenty of identity and when's the last time you wanted to waste their successful reaching of an opponent city on something as minor as an infiltration? (Unless it's a GREAT spy... it's worth it at that point.)

Is there some minimum level of Insidiousness vs Investigation needed?

No. I don't have a theory on it either except perhaps some caching issue maybe. I'd have to review that code and a save would help but I'm stuck unable to compile at the moment and not sure how much I want to invest in time yet anyhow.

 

[Toffer90]

But then I think the whole criminal system is broken to the point that I start to feel C2C is beyond saving.

This goes a bit beyond blunt.

A mixture of being blunt and melodramatic perhaps. ^^

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Oh! I don't know, perhaps it is because a fatal flaw has been pointed out. The current crime system breaks the espionage system, in particular diplomats and spies are caught too early. Not something I have noticed by the way. If history is anything to go by the working systems will be destroyed to hide the fatal flaw.

The Druid and Shaman religions pointed out a fatal flaw in the stop gap disease system but rather than building the real disease system we always intended and fixing the bug those religions were destroyed. Originally the disease system was going to be based on that in Eusebius' World Religion mod with the disease buildings just increasing the chance of an outbreak and nothing else. If fact both the disease and pollution systems were suppose to reduce the use of and so that their relative values could also be used as a means adjusting the chance of an outbreak of disease.

I have spent far too long working on other peoples stuff and not mine. Animals was Hydro's. Five sets of changes to that one. No wonder it is full of holes. Integrating Brackenspores' and others ideas.

BTW I am always grumpy for a few weeks after my birthday. If you had not noticed.