1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Infiltration by Rogue

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by DC0, Nov 5, 2018.

  1. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,711
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The crime system isn't doing anything to the espionage system. It hasn't changed anything about the espionage system - spies still do their thing exactly how they always have. The only theory I have is perhaps we've been too liberal in applying the ability to catch spies to too wide a selection of units. I haven't looked at the math in the code that tallies how spies are potentially caught so it's worth some review but it has nothing to do with criminals specifically.

    I suppose I don't follow this very well since I don't know anything about Eusebius or his work. I do know that solutions that work on events only, such as flammability, completely fail in MP games since you cannot play with events successfully there and it's really too much to try to correct that because it's too hard to force an event to trigger and debug syncing matters in python.

    I wasn't there for some of these decisions but I don't think I'd prefer the system you're saying we should've used. I respect what AIAndy invented here as one of the best innovations in the history of gaming imo.

    I get that feeling.

    I've been a little grumpy myself of late, trying to figure out why I'm so angry here. I don't mean to be so snappy either.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    AIAndy's invention? Wasn't Properties Koshling (I forget)? The Disease system was all Hydro. Eusebius' system used some of the religion mechanism to implement individual disease. We weren't. The Event system was not going to be used but a similar system to animal spawns for individual disease outbreaks. The chance of a disease outbreak was based on
    1. the disease being present as represented by the disease property for contagious diseases but environmental values or pollution property values for others.
    2. how much higher that the needed property value the property was adjusted by
      • :health:-:yuck: and
      • possibly buildings
    For example Cholera, a contamination based disease ie due to not having clean water. It's "disease present" building is not based on the disease property but on the city population and the infrastructure of that city. Fresh water means no chance in a city of 3 or less. A Town Well for populations up to 10. An Aqueduct up to 20. And so on. It is usually a symptom of the infrastructure not being able to cope with the population. Water pollution would be a factor, probably in the severity.

    Plague like diseases spread via trade routes based on transport technology and quarantine effectiveness.

    Health Care units get EXP from such outbreaks.

    Some diseases only affect units in the field if you are at war.
     
  3. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,711
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Nope... AIAndy. Koshling did initial AI development for it.
    The original purpose of the Properties system was to create the basis of the Disease system through, though it was setup a little off the original intent from the Properties system coding in that each disease was meant to have/be its own property. I don't think that would've worked out though. If we could ever finish the Outbreaks and Afflictions setup, we'd see something much closer to the original intent.

    I may need some help understanding the relationship between any religions and any diseases...

    That could still be done under Outbreaks and Afflictions if ever developed out in the XML.

    O&B can do that with individual buildings affecting recovery and outbreak chances of individual diseases. Existing disease outbreaks (far more model specific than generic health or unhealth, which can mean any kind of thing that's impacting the mortality rate of the population) can also impact the likelihood of other outbreaks, both generically and specifically.

    A cool idea would be to thus base the outbreak of Cholera on the water pollution level in an O&A environment. It's doable but to make that work, most water pollution systems would also need to be outbreak and recovery based. That would thus be something to table until you could look at other things going on there and determine if it can all be based on similar systems. Best to address the rest of the diseases first.

    Absolutely ready for implementation in O&A.

    They also get XP for helping units and city populations overcome outbreaks in O&A. Again, all that's failing here so far is the work hasn't been done in the xml to set this stuff up. Because of how many situations and scenarios must be prepared for in O&A, the end result is extremely complicated to setup a disease in so is probably a bit too intimidating so far to follow what I've published enough to work through the design of a disease.

    That said, if you're trying to make the point that the simple side of the disease system we have in place is overly basic, yeah, agreed.

    I'm not sure what the rationale for this on any disease would be but there's a lot of programming for unit disease interactions from diseases being used as weapons, spreading from unit to unit, from unit to city, from city to unit... there's so much possible and if we found boundaries in the development it's well prepped for further development. Furthermore, the AI is fairly well designed for it as it is.
     
  4. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    I figured it out! Both Spies and Criminals. The former is because we lack any fine control over the discovery of spies because of the way it is implemented in BtS. The latter because we are using the word differently.

    Spies

    The problem here is that buildings only have a tag that basically says "helps thwart spies" without giving any information on what it actually means or allowing us to have buildings that provide a little or a lot. It is all somewhere in the dll as far as I know. The simplest solution would be to reduce the value that gives at this time. A bigger task would be to add a tag that allows us to set a % that a building helps and then review all the buildings.​

    Criminals

    Crime Property and Crime Property buildings - no problems.

    Crime prevention including investigations and arrest - only the minor problem that I never see the message as it gets lost in all the other messages.

    Criminal Units and Criminal Buildings required to build them (except perhaps the pirate stuff) - big problems. Change the name from Criminals to Black-Ops and almost all my problems disappear! Not only that but a number of things from the White Lies & Black Ops mod can be included almost immediately.​
     
    raxo2222 and KaTiON_PT like this.
  5. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,763
    Location:
    Poland
    I found culprit tag: <iEspionageDefense>

    Here is full list of tag usage.
    Spoiler :

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Pepper2000\Pepper2000Earth_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    <iEspionageDefense>15</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Pepper2000\Pepper2000Galactic_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Pepper2000\Pepper2000Hyperspace_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (1 hit)
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\Modules\Vokarya\VokaryaWonders_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (2 hits)
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>75</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\XML\Buildings\GreatWonders_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\XML\Buildings\NationalWonders_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (4 hits)
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>15</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\XML\Buildings\Regular_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (42 hits)
    <iEspionageDefense>60</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>20</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-5</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>20</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>20</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>20</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>15</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>40</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>5</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>30</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>25</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>15</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>50</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-20</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>15</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>40</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>40</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-5</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>5</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>5</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>20</iEspionageDefense>

    \Caveman2Cosmos\Assets\XML\Buildings\SpecialBuildings_CIV4BuildingInfos.xml (6 hits)
    <iEspionageDefense>-40</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-80</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-100</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-200</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>10</iEspionageDefense>
    <iEspionageDefense>-25</iEspionageDefense>
     
  6. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5,246
    Location:
    Norway
    That one modifies the cost of performing spy missions within a city.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  7. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,763
    Location:
    Poland
    Well this was where this "Helps thwrat spies" lead me.....
    Then that text was irrelevant.
     
  8. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5,246
    Location:
    Norway
    Yes buildings that have the <iEspionageDefense> tag at bigger than 0 gets the "Helps thwart spies" line in its tooltip.

    Also, all units that have the <bCounterSpy> tag set to 1 gets the "Helps thwart spies" line in its tooltip. (All spy units, dog units, and law enforcers, etc. have this tag.)
    These units does not increase the cost to perform espionage missions but decrease the chance of success.
    All units that can defend also decrease the chance for espionage missions to succeed.

    Spoiler Code example :
    Code:
    int CvUnit::sabotageProb(const CvPlot* pPlot, ProbabilityTypes eProbStyle) const
    {
        CvPlot* pLoopPlot;
        int iDefenseCount;
        int iCounterSpyCount;
        int iProb;
        int iI;
    
        iProb = 0; // XXX
    
        if (pPlot->isOwned())
        {
            iDefenseCount = pPlot->plotCount(PUF_canDefend, -1, -1, NULL, NO_PLAYER, pPlot->getTeam());
            iCounterSpyCount = pPlot->plotCount(PUF_isCounterSpy, -1, -1, NULL, NO_PLAYER, pPlot->getTeam());
    
            for (iI = 0; iI < NUM_DIRECTION_TYPES; iI++)
            {
                pLoopPlot = plotDirection(pPlot->getX_INLINE(), pPlot->getY_INLINE(), ((DirectionTypes)iI));
    
                if (pLoopPlot != NULL)
                {
                    iCounterSpyCount += pLoopPlot->plotCount(PUF_isCounterSpy, -1, -1, NULL, NO_PLAYER, pPlot->getTeam());
                }
            }
        }
        else
        {
            iDefenseCount = 0;
            iCounterSpyCount = 0;
        }
    
        if (eProbStyle == PROBABILITY_HIGH)
        {
            iCounterSpyCount = 0;
        }
    
        iProb += (40 / (iDefenseCount + 1)); // XXX
    
        if (eProbStyle != PROBABILITY_LOW)
        {
            iProb += (50 / (iCounterSpyCount + 1)); // XXX
        }
    
        return iProb;
    }
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  9. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,763
    Location:
    Poland
    I guess Law Enforcement units shouldn't have this tag.
     
  10. Toffer90

    Toffer90 C2C Modder

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2011
    Messages:
    5,246
    Location:
    Norway
    That tag should only be used by units who cannot fight, as being able to fight already makes them counter enemy espionage success. It would count double up with that tag for units that have strength.
     
  11. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,711
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    That's exactly the issue. Some of these effects are numeric but don't share that numeric difference. Some are boolean but don't explain how it works. I haven't looked in the code to evaluate it yet but I agree that we need a lot more visibility on this system as a whole!
    Perhaps you should review your messages now and then. There's a lot of messages that get lost when a round is done quickly and some just don't get shown for some reason. Some add-on to the military advisor could be good but then again, you could technically use the military advisor for this role already to periodically check for wanted criminals.

    Why? They are Black Ops state funded versions. You get the unsanctioned versions from high crime - you don't WANT them per-se but if you are trying to train them and manipulate and use them and harness the underworld of your society, you can't put a big flag on the building, you have to make it seem to be a totally normal criminal front.
    Of course criminals are black ops. There is no difference! The barbarian criminals that emerge are the ones nobody controls... these are 'normal' and 'real' criminals. As for the ones you train, they are government agents who would probably be criminals anyhow but you've somehow got them working for you and doing mostly what you want of them. Perhaps they were more real anarchic operatives at one point but now they work for the state. This makes them Black Ops. The other 3 types of Black Ops units would be spies, strike teams, and ruffians. All 4 have different focuses and methods but all 4 work for you since they are under your command.

    If you have more to add for them to be able to do, awesome! Consider what you could also add to strike teams possibly.
    You can also see your total Espionage defense % in your city screen under the City Defense help hover.

    You'd think that would thus be appropriate for LE units. Still, if it's the problem (this was added to them after I experienced the issue and since then ppl are saying things are better than it was so I'm not sure it's a problem) then it could be changed. If it has no benefit then it's just words I guess.
     
  12. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Exactly. That is the big problem you are calling apples oranges. Change the name and there is no problem. Keep the name the same as real criminals and there are problems.

    As an aside, in almost all my encounters with crime the perpetrators of said crime have been female. These were break-ins where stuff was stolen and attacks with a knife causing harm.:lol:
     
  13. KaTiON_PT

    KaTiON_PT Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    842
    Location:
    Portugal
    Everything is upside down down there in Australia. :crazyeye:
     
    raxo2222 likes this.
  14. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,711
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    I'm not sure why you'd need to change the name. The name says what they are. Criminals can be employed by a state to do the crimes they do. And often they are just blending in while performing a more state function. Whitey Bolger is a perfect example. Many criminals work for states they don't operate in for obvious reasons. Being a criminal is not always about being unemployed scum. It can be about being very employed scum. But its always about being scum.
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    Espionage needs to be kept totally separate from Crime as concepts otherwise it causes confusion. Espionage is about interactions with other nations. Crime is local or national. 99.9% of crime in a city is local why mix in the special case(s) with the mundane?

    This not to say units should not interact with both. However in my opinion counters to them should also be kept separate. So LE units should not be directly targeting espionage units. In America, if TV and Movies are anything to go by, local authorities are concerned with local crime. These are the main LE units. The FBI and some others are concerned with national crime and to the extent that it affects crime, counter espionage.

    Anyway I probably should summerise what Black-Ops covers which probably explains this need for separation better
    • Black-Ops units have a small Crime producing effect by their very nature but it is only part of their purpose
    • they are for use in foreign lands (there are similar units that are for use in your own lands but they are handled differently since their chance of being discovered or prosecuted is very very low)
    • while moving towards their target they act similarly to hidden nationality units but may be detected via either the espionage or crime fighting methods. They are not doing anything active at this point so unless you are at war or truce with the nation they should be fairly undetectable
    • once at the target, based on their nature and promotions they get a number of available tasks
      • do crime - current default for these units, they actively commit crimes so their Crime Property goes up. This is probably done via a build up option
      • encourage crime - much lower actual Crime Property but the chance that they recruit a criminal appropriate to the existing level of Crime in the city
        • the units they recruit have a number of other uses eg gang leader can start a Gang War as cover for other Black-Ops or they can be sent back to your nation for more training eg the resistance/partisans or sleeper cells
      • build informant network, don't give much crime while doing this, provides small amount of espionage, destroyed if war breaks out
      • gather intel, don't give much crime while doing this
      • set up safe houses
      • become sleeper cell, no Crime effect when they do this
      • sabotage, must be at war
      • assassination
      • terror attack, must be at war (at least according to you) increases war weariness.
    There are a number of others.

    edit BTW real criminals change their allegiance as soon as they a border. They stop being a criminal and become a fine upstanding citizen who increases the wealth of there new nation with the proceeds of their criminal activity in their former nation.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2018
  16. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    My brother, on the other hand, has a different experience. Like the time, just after he got his driving licence, that he scratched Rolls belonging to the head of the State crime syndicate . Ah, those were the days:lol:. The chauffeur took pity on my brother and took the blame.
     
    KaTiON_PT likes this.
  17. Thunderbrd

    Thunderbrd C2C War Dog

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2010
    Messages:
    24,711
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    Because that's how it works. Black operatives wear the cover of a criminal and the cover is often as real as their underlying espionage mission, if not more real. The CIA paid handsomely for certain talented folks to smuggle drugs into the US so as to fund Columbia's civil war efforts. They were criminals on the payroll. BUT if they were ever caught, they'd be re-released quietly. Many of the largest gangs were formed by guys under top secret protection, allowed to commit all the crimes they committed without reproach unless they betrayed their ultimate directive - usually at some point they would be turned loose and told to cease activities but would then choose not to but it's a big part of the gang problems we have today. More modern, hackers are caught doing what they do, then immediately recruited to... do what they do.

    In essence, privateering and pretending to NOT be someone on a state payroll is a big part of what the whole thing is about for a deep cover black operative. If they are military personnel doing black ops, it's usually more field based.

    What you said in your edit is sometimes true in some situations, primarily those types of criminals that do all they can to foment revolution. Too difficult to model to that depth and the property system isn't well designed to enable conditional property manipulator effects - though some upgrade options to an ex-criminal civilian type political leader might be interesting. I had considered that if we ever got around to making leaders and leader quality individuals units on the board.

    In many cases, too, when criminals are operating within your own borders, they are still criminals doing their thing. Why would a player want his own criminals in his own territory? Exactly why the police often throw caught criminals back into the free underworld - so as to be a spy to unravel criminal activities they take part in, an informant. They must still do crime to be a part of that scene enough to not be discovered. Criminals are very good at getting visibility on other criminals, and if you REALLY evaluate the visibility system of hide and seek closely, you'll find there are points in time where ONLY criminals can be used to spot the most skilled enemy criminals. I had some plans with the arrest system to make this a more overt strategy option once a criminal was caught - after being converted to an informant they would still spread crime but not as much.

    Again, with the simple understanding that if a unit is under your control then it is under state employment, this shouldn't be hard to follow.

    Your list of things a black op would do is pretty much all the things that criminals DO so... not sure what the problem is here. Part of the trick of not making them different units to the same types as barbarian criminals is so you'll never know if it was a foreign actor or a local random agent of anarchy. If the unit type was different, you'd know the difference for sure.
     
  18. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2004
    Messages:
    22,867
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Canberra, Australia
    All those values are way too high. In vanilla there is only one or two buildings of this nature and I expect they were copied for the most part without adjusting the values. perhaps if the regular (pre-Transhuman) buildings have their values divided by 5, national wonders by 2 if over 15 and great wonders also divided by 2 if over 30 it might get Spies back to being useful. Not sure what to do about the special buildings.
     
    raxo2222 likes this.
  19. raxo2222

    raxo2222 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2011
    Messages:
    4,763
    Location:
    Poland
    Special buildings are crimes probably.

    Hyperspace and Galactic pepper module files are post Transhuman.
    Also they are in space zone.

    I guess crimes might need division by 5 too.

    I left alone Transhuman+ entries.
    Entries before that were nerfed: regular/special buildings were divided by 5.

    National/World wonders were divided by 2 if <iEspionageDefense> was higher than 15/30 respectively.

    Transhuman crime named Brainwashing is going to be LETHAL - since it was Transhuman entry I left -200 EspionageDefense :D

    You should be only civ on Earth after Transhuman era anyway on space maps.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  20. DC0

    DC0 Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2008
    Messages:
    194
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Russia, Moscow
    Wow, just look at the discussion...

    IMO, crime system works fine. It's immensely satisfying to arrest that pesky criminal after many turns of investigation.
    Also, before some recent patch Exile would give 200 espionage points after infiltration, Thief - 300, Rogue - 400. If I remember correctly. It might seem big at a glance, but in the beginning of Ancient Era I normally have several cities making 100+ EP per turn. And considering that it takes at least 20 turns for a Exile or Thief to go from home city to target enemy city, EP points they get don't seem like "a lot".

    About Crime units making espionage in real life. Of course they do. They always did throughout history. The nature of criminal business makes criminals know stuff. And they are willing to sell their knowledge to anyone willing to pay. Prostitutes, cardsharpers, drug dealers were and are the most used for espionage purposes.

    I'd prefer if Crime units would get back their ability to infiltrate.

    And one more opinion. I consider crime units useless. Their only use for me is bringing EP from infiltration. Their upkeep is too high. They cannot capture units.
    Strike Teams can capture units (like Workers) and are much more efficient in stealth combat.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018

Share This Page