Information On Our Opponents

[TheMeInTeam]

If the answer to that question is "no" then we ought to re-open the poll for leaders, as I can't imagine that people who voted for Cyrus did so without considering the possibility. In SP, the only things that stop the immortal rush are spears, and those can usually be overcome by good scouting, and quick pillaging. Only the Mayans are potentially immune to the immortal rush.

It leaves the option open, but the probable answer is "no" because we expect some room to expand. Rushing 15+ tile distance capitols with ANYTHING is hard. If we get some CQB we might want to scout heavy and see if we can press our UU advantage, but I'm doubtful and expect us to lean on IMP's expansion element.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Rushing 15+ tile distance capitols with ANYTHING is hard. If we get some CQB we might want to scout heavy and see if we can press our UU advantage, but I'm doubtful and expect us to lean on IMP's expansion element.

I may be in the minority, but I don't know what CQB stands for.

 

[Norton I]

I may be in the minority, but I don't know what CQB stands for.

I join that minority!

 

[Sommerswerd]

I may be in the minority, but I don't know what CQB stands for.

I think what TMIT means by CQB is Close Quarters Battle... In other words, if we start with a rival civ close to us we can scout them out and possibly try an Immortal rush.

That would be nice but it just is not going to happen. The Immortals are going to fight barbs and that it. We will be far far away from our opponents. Can you imagine the whining that would result if we were close enough to elimminate a team with an Immortal Rush?!?

Now that we are in the leader picking stage, this is what I think our opponents will be (based totally on my unscientific gut instinct and prior experience with pitboss):
1. Mali - Probably Merlot
2. Dutch - Probably Sirius or Mavericks
3. Darius(Persia) or Maya - Probably Sirius
4. Sumeria or Rome - Quatronia
5. CDZ - ???

I also would not be suprised to see Inca in there somewhere, bu I have no idea who would pick Inca. My point is to get discussion going about what leaders we might expect to see, so we can start throwing some preliminary strategy ideas around. We should know thefinal leader choices in a couple days.

 

[mariogreymist]

It leaves the option open, but the probable answer is "no" because we expect some room to expand. Rushing 15+ tile distance capitols with ANYTHING is hard. If we get some CQB we might want to scout heavy and see if we can press our UU advantage, but I'm doubtful and expect us to lean on IMP's expansion element.

I certainly didn't mean to imply that a rush should be plan A, and certainly not against distant capitals. Given that the map will be made rather than randomly generated, I am guessing you are right that there probably won't be a rush target. Immortals are still a nice thing to have though, if for no other reason than as the cadillac of settler escorts. (all the more important if we're going to flog IMP)

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ Immortals are very good for farming barb cities for exp, unlocking HE, and capturing them.

 

[mariogreymist]

^ Immortals are very good for farming barb cities for exp, unlocking HE, and capturing them.

Yep...and that usually times well for when cities' culture starts to connect, allowing one to use erstwhile worker escorts for that purpose. Apart from vultures, I think Immortals are the best units for sacking barb cities. Too bad we aren't playing at a level where they spawn soon and in numbers .

 

[SilentConfusion]

Our opponents:

Mavericks: Gandhi (PHI/SPI) (Myst/Mining) (Fast Worker/Mausoleum)
Sirius: Willem von Oranje (CRE/FIN) (Fish/Ag) (East Indiaman/Dike)
Merlot: Pacal II (EXP/FIN) (Myst/Mining) (Holkan/Ball Court)
CDZ: Ragnar (AGG/FIN) (Fish/Hunting) (Berzerker/Trading Post)
Quatronia: Hannibal (FIN/CHA) (Fish, Mining) (Numidian Cavalry/Cothon)

Us:
Team AMAZON: Cyrus (IMP/CHA) (Ag/Hunting) (Immortal/Apothocary)

Notes:
-No Industrial civs to gobble up wonders.
-Only one other team chose a growth trait (Merlot)
-All but one of our opponents (Mavericks) chose a Financial leader
-Only one other team will start with a scout (CDZ)
-Two teams start with Myst (Mavericks, Merlot) enticing them to try for early religions, but since there are two they might fear going for the same one. Merlot is Financial, but he doesn't have fishing so can't work a lake tile to guarantee religion.

 

[damnrunner]

SilentC can you (or someone else) make a thread for each opponent. Or I can do this later today if on one else does 1st.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Mavericks and Merlot both start with Mysticism and Mining. I think we can expect them to both tech Bronze Working First and then a religion before going for an Oracle chop.

There is no way we can beat either of them to it because we probably have to get AH (and maybe Wheel too) first. So we can probably scratch that off the list and focus on something else.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Mavericks and Merlot both start with Mysticism and Mining. I think we can expect them to both tech Bronze Working First and then a religion before going for an Oracle chop.

I doubt Merlot will pull this, and I *strongly* doubt a team headed by the deity players I know from S&T will do it. That's 40+ turns of not improving a food special. What tech are they going to pull off the oracle? Monarchy? CoL? It's not worth the lost food turns. Highly unlikely they do it, and if they do we should be happy.

 

[Sommerswerd]

That's 40+ turns of not improving a food special. It's not worth the lost food turns.

Good point.

 

[damnrunner]

Still they we can expect one of those teams to go for an early oracle. Last game it came surprisingly late.

 

[mariogreymist]

Still they we can expect one of those teams to go for an early oracle. Last game it came surprisingly late.

I think it might be wise if we consider making a push for the Oracle as 1st priority after hooking up a strategic resource. With so many financial leaders, it could be easy to fall behind early technologically. An Oracle ->CoL (assuming we have room to press the IMP advantage) or Oracle->MC (if we don't) move could keep us at or ahead of parity. I think the presence of marble or lack thereof would be the deciding factor in my thinking.

As one of only two non-FIN civs in the game, I really think we ought to consider either the Oracle or the glh (which plays well with IMP) as a means to keep with or ahead of the pack in tech. I'd suggest one or the other, with no other wonder attempts until maybe the GL.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

^ We have 2 silver mines and you're worried about falling behind the FINs? Even if they have comparable starts, we still have trades, GPP, etc. A dedicated push for oracle from and IND will get it before hooking up non-capitol marble to help build it is even possible. With CHA and silver, we're at +3 without anything but mysticism and mining.

The one thing that could get me to reconsider is if, for some reason, the other sides do NOT have the kind of commerce start we have, allowing us to out-race them to oracle. I'm not holding my breath there, but if the demo screen shows a big GNP lead we can consider it as a tech alliance chip.

Still, our traits push us toward expansion, not blowing hammers on wonders. We have the commerce, we have decent , and monarch maintenance isn't that drastic. I feel pursuing an early wonder is a blunder given our start and leader. If we were SURE we could get stonehenge, that's the one we'd really want. However, 2 civs have mysticism already...

 

[mariogreymist]

I said consider, not do, in my defense. And looking at what leaders we're against, I'd say we're likely screwed on the glh anyway. Hannibal is custom made for taking the glh. (Trade based UB/fishing/mining) And the Oracle is only worth it with Cyrus if we have marble and can chop it without diverting tech for it (about as likely as winning the lotto).

So you are almost certainly right.

 

[nabaxo]

If we have stone nearby, I say we should definitely shoot for SH, those starting with myst be damned!

 

[Sommerswerd]

Also, marble will not help us, as Great Lighthouse does not accelerate with marble (or stone IIRC).

The only wonders I think we have a chance at are Stonehenge (because everyone will be distracted by Oracle) and Great Wall. You need Oracle for (MC) to have a realistic chance at Colossus. Pyramids without stone is a no-go.

I agree with TMIT that wonders are mainly a distraction for us. The only exceptions is Stonehenge, because it automatically gives us the +1 benefit in every city without the hassle of building a monument, plus it gives us built in border pops to help us expand rapidly. Ideally, I would like to chop stonehenge for the quick border pops and quick expansion then chop Great Wall to cover all our border poped cities... but that is going to take some testing to see how it plays out.

 

[SilentConfusion]

Also, marble will not help us, as Great Lighthouse does not accelerate with marble (or stone IIRC).

The only wonders I think we have a chance at are Stonehenge (because everyone will be distracted by Oracle) and Great Wall. You need Oracle for (MC) to have a realistic chance at Colossus. Pyramids without stone is a no-go.

I agree with TMIT that wonders are mainly a distraction for us. The only exceptions is Stonehenge, because it automatically gives us the +1 benefit in every city without the hassle of building a monument, plus it gives us built in border pops to help us expand rapidly. Ideally, I would like to chop stonehenge for the quick border pops and quick expansion then chop Great Wall to cover all our border poped cities... but that is going to take some testing to see how it plays out.

I agree with this. Stonehenge is probably the only early wonder we should try for. It raises our happy cap in all our cities by one and we can build granary first in all cities, which is pretty awesome. Plus it doesn't take that many chops. But teching Mysticism is the tricky part. When do we do that?

EDIT: Two civs start with Myst, but none are Industrious at least.

 

[mariogreymist]

Myst after getting ah/bw/wheel at the earliest. With pre-chopping and anal retentive micro, it's possible to get SH up in 1 turn, minimizing the chance of failure. If someone builds it before we get myst, then so be it. Strategic resources>SH imo. I also strongly endorse the idea of chopping it out in the second city, if forests make it feasible. The 16 is nice in a capital, but awesome in a second (particularly a blocking) city. (wholly map dependent though)