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Initial civfan reactions to Civ 4

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by CultureManiac, Oct 27, 2016.

  1. MooFreaky

    MooFreaky Meatbag Destroyer

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    You say it's rushed, but you totally ignore how a video game is made. It is very expensive with low-middling return on investment (thus high risk), and so needs to be treated carefully. They are never going to be able to know how the players will treat a game. It always gets dissected, used and abused in ways that the developers didn't consider. That is a good and important process. They can now make patches and alterations to redirect the game as needed. If you have too many features initially this can actually cause big problems, as the more features you have the harder it is to get them working together and then if you do need to make changes to one it can indirectly throw out everything else. So by releasing a vanilla that is "incomplete" you can spend time letting people get completely to grips with the game, then add content that works with and for the players.

    Plus, economically, you cannot afford to just put everything in off the bat. Most small-mid sized developers put the company on the line with every major release (and we have seen MANY of them fold when they have poor releases, many for the reasons i just described). You paid the same price for Civ6 that you probably did for Civ3 (even Civ2), yet the cost of developing 6 was astronomically higher, but you demand more of everything and have it be perfection off the bat.
    Paid expansions and DLC are vital to developing a big game these days, to help cover the crazy costs and help nullify the risk (and to provide the money needed to actually develop the game).

    Perhaps if you see the same process repeated there is a method that you just haven't stopped to consider?

    Civ4 had lots of gameplay compaints. People didn't like the stacks of doom, or the fact to be super competitive you had to understand the mechanics exploits (chop pop-rushing, micromanaging the science bar, etc etc)


    I mentioned it above, but expansions and DLC are so important to modern games. People are so upset about it, but if we didn't have them most developers like Firaxis wouldn't be able to continue providing expanded content.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
    Haggbart, Gorbles and TruthfulCake like this.
  2. Roald Amundsen

    Roald Amundsen Warlord

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    Civ4 was for me, also, an instant big love, and I remember questioning my friends loathing of the game. (He came around though : ) actually i also loved civ3 from the get go but that's another story.

    People like to compare the release of civ4 with civ6. In civ6 i've encountered more Bugs, and really game breaking Bugs. Cant honestly remember encountering a single one upon the release of 4!
     
  3. TruthfulCake

    TruthfulCake Prince

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    Other than one game where I couldn't go to next turn no matter what, I would say none of the bugs we have found have been gamebreaking, only inconvenient at worst. To break the game, the bug should crash your game or make it unplayable or impossible to finish as the game is intended to be finished. If you have bugs that fit this criteria, I'd be interested to learn about them, but so far I had been able to finish all (sans one) of my games. And I couldn't reproduce that bug I encountered, either.

    You should also consider that you might have grown as a gamer that you notice bugs more readily. I don't buy the claim that Civ 4 released without bugs - the black tile fiasco seems to be one gamebreaking bug.

    Point is, all games released, bar none, will have bugs. In the old days, the devs just had to develop their games painstakingly, often at their own expense, while trying fruitlessly to eliminate all bugs. Internet-administered patches weren't a thing, and if a bug was found post-release the game would be panned and all the devs' efforts would pretty much futile. Today, by releasing the game earlier, the devs can get early monetary support to pay their staff for the many months they need to get the game as close to perfection as possible. If they had followed the old model and waited until they iron out most bugs (again, impossible), they would have bankrupted themselves while the buzz for the announced game died and they still had employees to feed. MooFreaky summed it up well in the previous post.

    If Civ IV is the golden standard, then it should be known that Firaxis follows up well with every release. This was true for Civ V as well. I have no doubts that Civ VI will eventually be much more polished than it is now, and therefore slamming the devs for bugs at this point (exactly one week after release) is the least constructive thing to do. The community in general could use much less vitriol and the notes of the bugs they encountered would still reach the devs all the same.
     
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  4. Roald Amundsen

    Roald Amundsen Warlord

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    Ok sorry I wasn't really accurate, and should rather be saying issues rather than Bugs. Sorry for the confusion. I've discussed my problems with 6 on other threads.
     
  5. Staal

    Staal Warlord

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    Wish I could like your post more than once!
     
  6. Evs

    Evs Chieftain

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    Number 3 should be "have the community complete the game with mods"
     
  7. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    This would be more convincing if it weren't for the fact many of the design problems infuriating people were discovered a decade ago.
     
  8. TruthfulCake

    TruthfulCake Prince

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    The very vocal, "infuriated" minority of the past, who complain about Civ IV's cartoony graphics you mean? Right now it seems that those voices have all but been drowned out.

    There is no denying that some design problems have repeated themselves. However, I don't see how that contradicts the "not enough time" argument. A new game has to be built from the ground up, and sometimes little features like how certain graphs behave take the backseat when compared to the core elements of the game. The developers can't go "OK let's determine how the graphs will look and behave like and implement it right now!" before starting to create the main game systems. As time has shown that they will eventually add these features in the end anyway -and for free-, it is not a problem of "devs want to repeat mistakes to infuriate people" as much as it is "the developers lack enough time to re-implement some quality-of-life features before release."

    It goes without saying that stuff like the AI needs to be coded differently when the game system is inherently different, and the UI needs to be presented differently when the game requires different sorts of interaction. Some problems may end up repeating themselves, inadvertently. How about we focus on "infuriating problems" that do not repeat themselves this time? Like how the game is actually not bare bones and has features on par with CiV vanilla plus two expansions?
     
  9. Nefelia

    Nefelia Prince

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    Thank you, OP, for this hilarious submission.

    I admit, I do get rather annoyed by the negativity directed at Civ V and now Civ VI. I understand that some people did not like the shift towards 1UPT, but it has been years and the issue has been beaten to death. At this point, I can only suggest that these people start trying out some different strategy game franchises.

    Indeed. It seems some people are happy to play Civ IV for their entire lives. Many of us, however, have pretty much dried up the well of deployability Civ IV (and even Civ V) had to offer, and are more than ready to embrace some refreshing new mechanics.

    Fortunately, Civ IV has many great mods to satisfy that vocal minority.

    I welcome you to the second decade of the 21st century. Games have increased in complexity, and the industry has moved towards the practice of releasing functional games and adding polish in response to the feedback of the user base. This is not going to change any time soon.

    You have the option of (a) adapting to the new reality by delaying your purchase until the first few patches or (b) buying the game upon release and engaging in futile rants against the industry in the forums.

    You chose option (b).
     
    MooFreaky likes this.
  10. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    I had in mind things more like, say, overflow handling.
     
  11. TruthfulCake

    TruthfulCake Prince

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    Right. I bet it's one of those things that change depending on the game mechanics. I think they fixed the science overflow exploit this time around. But overflow is a hard thing to debug because it is an exploit to a system that is supposed to be working properly. I bet the developers wouldn't have noticed this kind of bug as fast as the players did. Anyhow, this will be one of the first things they patch, I bet. No reason to worry.
     
  12. Sera Otoro

    Sera Otoro Chieftain

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    Well, hopefully if the modding community were given suitable freedoms to mod the game the way they want, then hopefully we can completely eradicate the 1UPT... or better yet, they make a patch to have it as an option, but that's just me thinking in a "perfect world" ideology XD

    i personally like the city states, but why they removed the option to set how many there are is something i dont understand. a lot of the game setup options were removed, pretty bad move of them, so i hope they patch it to re-add those missing options again.
     
  13. Trias

    Trias Donkey with three behinds

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    Since this is a new game, the game setup was probably coded from scratch. Hence the "missing" options were not removed, but simply never implemented. It is not like somebody went around removing setup options that were already there in the code. Game setup customization was literally one of the last things the devs were working on. (In one of the last video's prior to release you can here them talking about still being in the process of adding some of these. That was with less than a week to release.)

    Most of the setup options we had in the past will probably be added in the future in patches (or along with expansions).
     
  14. IronfighterXXX

    IronfighterXXX Work Hard - Play Hard

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    Let's hope they will patch it, although they haven't really fixed overflow in Civ5 until today (just limited it to five turns) :crazyeye:

    The current state of game is one issue, how fast and smart they will react to fix it is another, now much more important.

    Final BNW version is great improvement over Civ5 vanilla, but came after three years and is still not completely bugs and exploits free.

    BTW some guy using variety of current exploits just achieved 118T science victory on deity! :lol:
     
  15. StittsvileJamie

    StittsvileJamie Chieftain

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    You're my new favourite Internet person.
    Great posts - ariculate, reasoned, grammatically correct; poetic almost.
     
    TruthfulCake likes this.
  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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