Initiative - Determining our Government

[ravensfire]

Which reminds me, what's with including Traditional in the vote? I thought only actual proposals would be included, and was looking forward to responding to those who wanted it but couldn't go to the trouble of writing it.

It was a very informal proposal, and I didn't want to deal with the about no traditional option. If it wins, I will enjoy watching the supporters put something together. I would certainly be available for critique and review, but that's it.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Falcon02]

Which reminds me, what's with including Traditional in the vote? I thought only actual proposals would be included, and was looking forward to responding to those who wanted it but couldn't go to the trouble of writing it.

Some of us have had to work 12 hour shifts for the past 4 days

Even though it looks like support is in favor of the Tribal System right now I'm gonna see if I can't come up with some sort of draft for a traditional system tonight. At the very least it can be a start on whatever's gonna replace the Tribal system when we get to big...

I still don't get the whole... "let's make a government just to throw it out the window midgame" idea.

 

[ravensfire]

I still don't get the whole... "let's make a government just to throw it out the window midgame" idea.

That's actually so that those of us that enjoy the political side of the DG get to have our fun too. Or do we not count?

Here's what I think will happen.
Term 1 - Warlord and Elder at first, 2-3 elders by the end, plus military leader, maybe Witch Doctor (foreign affairs - always send them to see Witch Doctor first).
Term 2 - 2-3 more elders, FA, domestic stuff
Term 3, 4 - reorg into states, rename elder governor, rename other offices, replace coup with something else, another leader, focusing on trade, religion and tech.
Term 5 - Minor reorg of duties

Term 3 is the start of the rewrite. We'll have a great idea of what we need AND the level of participation we've got. That will tell us the number of offices we need, and how to allocate the duties.

Tribal is light when you need it, heavy when you need it, and capable of adjusting. Traditional is just plain heavy.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Falcon02]

Well, I didn't see any mechanism in your proposal for adding specialized leaders (ie. Military, Domestic, etc.) just Warlord and Elders.

Also, my plan for initial will be build as you go based (since it seems most support that).

Start with the big three President, Military, Domestic. And then on that we can add whatever we want whenever.

 

[DaveShack]

Some of us have had to work 12 hour shifts for the past 4 days

Me too, but it's self inflicted. I represent my company at a user group meeting twice a year, and now's the time.

I'll be hopeful to see a solid proposal. Even if it's not adopted to start with, keep in mind that we might just need it, and it will be handy to have it ready.

 

[ravensfire]

Well, I didn't see any mechanism in your proposal for adding specialized leaders (ie. Military, Domestic, etc.) just Warlord and Elders.

It's easy - just create it with an initiative. That's the entire concept behind the build as you go system. Start small, and when you need another office, create it. This Tribal system is built around that core concept.

I made an assumption that this would be understood. I'll have to think about adding a clause in the next revision. "Additional offices may be created as needed by initiative."

-- Ravensfire

 

[Falcon02]

I made an assumption that this would be understood. I'll have to think about adding a clause in the next revision. "Additional offices may be created as needed by initiative."

-- Ravensfire

One more thing you might want to put in there...

By simple majority (may be true of all initiatives, in which case that might not be needed) or 2/3 or whatnot?

I imagine simple majority, but you might need to clarify.

 

[jdubdixon]

I think that tribalism is a great idea. I also think that it wont have to be changed as we grow but that if we style it around the Roman Empire. To do this i propose (and this will probaply be hashed out after the vote) we make the warlord the elder of the capitol and we give the warlord control over troop movement that leaves our borders, construction of improvements, gives the authority to build world wonder, national wonder, and projects in any city, and construction in cities for civil defense during wartimes. If there is a coup against the warlord then it should be a coup against all the other elders and that all the elders are removed and that the new warlord chooses all the new elders if successful. Warlords should also have a life limit like mabey one age or less and after that the warlord can become governor of any city (but the capitol of course). Tell me what you think.

 

[Furius]

I'm in favour of tribal... Traditional seems not ready yet.... And parliamentary is too complex for now...

I think

 

[Nobody]

Hey Furisus, Where abouts are you from?

 

[donsig]

Here's what I think will happen.
Term 1 - Warlord and Elder at first, 2-3 elders by the end, plus military leader, maybe Witch Doctor (foreign affairs - always send them to see Witch Doctor first).

This sounds like fun. So how do we decide who the Elder and Warlord are? How about highest number of posts for Warlord and earliest CivFanatics join date for Elder? Not sure what criteria we could use for Witch Doctor.

 

[Falcon02]

This sounds like fun. So how do we decide who the Elder and Warlord are? How about highest number of posts for Warlord and earliest CivFanatics join date for Elder? Not sure what criteria we could use for Witch Doctor.

I think we'd use the Constitution we approved for this one....

Article D - Elections

1. Terms of service of all elected and appointed offices shall be determined in advance of the beginning of such term, as further defined by law.
2. All Election and other polls in which specific individuals are chosen by name shall be private polls, and not public polls.
3. The candidate with the highest vote total is the winner of an election poll, regardless of whether such vote total is a majority of votes cast or not.
   1. Should two or more candidates tie for the most votes, as many runoff elections shall be held as needed to resolve the election, as further defined by law.

Though in all fairness, the proposal does not explicitly say the Warlord and Elders are elected. Nor does the constitution say all official positions must be elected (unless I missed it).

This clarification may still need to be added.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Again piping up for parliamentary:

We need to have a system that can handle the complexity of the future. Parliamentary is designed with the Middle Ages and onward in mind--that's two-thirds of the game, if we play it through to modern times!--and I'm not sure how Tribal will handle that kind of complexity. I suspect that some people (probably not enough to affect the poll) voted on the basis of the obvious simplicity of the system, without taking into account that we would eventually need to change the structure of government. It's much easier to have the whole thing set up at the beginning and ignore pointless provisions than to have to add new stuff on top of an old one.

Furthermore, there's no reason that the cool titles couldn't be adapted to parliamentary, and on top of that, parliamentary does not address Governors--I have no real problem with the tribal way of doing that.

 

[Methos]

I suspect that some people (probably not enough to affect the poll) voted on the basis of the obvious simplicity of the system, without taking into account that we would eventually need to change the structure of government.

This is one of the reasons I voted for the tribal system, as I knew it would eventually be replaced, as pointed out by its creator. Sorry Lock, but your system was just too complicated for me and Raven's wasn't. If I had voted for yours it would have more than likely been a permanent government that I didn't fully comprehend. Raven's I do for the most part understand it, its simpler to read. We know that the tribal system will eventually be replaced and if you plan ahead maybe you can make your system simpler and easier to read. You've got time (if yours loses out) to iron out the kinks and educate us, as in the citizens, about it.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

I tried to explain it more clearly in my most recent edit. Try reading all the spoilers (except the first one).

 

[Vind2]

Tribal! Sounds like the best to use in micro-managing all the citys. Plus it allows for alot more people to get involved.

misread ops

 

[ice2k4]

We need to have a system that can handle the complexity of the future.

Maybe this system would work nice in the future. But the future isn't now. And thats the beauty of the build-as-you-go attitude. We are eventually going to need a new government. These rules aren't written in stone like they have been in the past demogame. In game when the citizens yearn for a new government, it would be a good idea to bring this back up again.

 

[Hyronymus]

Voted for tribal because I think that is the best way to start the game.

 

[Nobody]

What if the war cheif (which i think should be renamed high cheif) was able to create other offices.

 

[Chieftess]

I strongly support the Tribal Government Proposal and hope my fellow citizens will seriously consider voting for it...

I recall a discussion many demogames ago - I think even Civ3 DG1 or DG2 where some (I think it was Strider, and a few others in fact) wanted a government based on the government we had in the game.

I suppose it could've worked with Civ3 (substituting Despotism for Tribal Council), but now we have 5 civics, and 5 possible civics each (3125 possible governments!).

I could see it adding to roleplay when we're a Fuedalistic Therocracy, or a Free Voting Evinormentalist.


We should still have some sort of hybrid with multiple advisors, though, so it doesn't potentially leave people out of running for offices.

Perhaps one interesting idea is, choosing the "Prime Minister" so to speak (Primary Advisor) who gets to be the DP based on the government type. (i.e., Despotism, the President, Heredetary Rule, Domestic, and so on).