Inquisitions

[necrosmith]

I think one of the better things to come to Civ IV is the inclusion of religion in the game. It's a concept that is quite overdue based on the role religion has played through history.

However, I can't escape this PC, touch-feely feeling I get from the way they modeled religion in the game.

It seems in the interest of not offending anybody, they really sacrificed a lot of realism in regards to the way they modeled religion. Where are the inquisitions and purges? Why can't I purge the heretics and rid my nation of religions I don't want?

One of the most prominent legacies of religion such as Christianity and Islam has been the intolerance of other religions. Why can't I make the streets flow with the blood of the nonbelievers?

 

[Glinka]

It seems in the interest of not offending anybody, they really sacrificed a lot of realism in regards to the way they modeled religion.

I think it was more in the interests in keeping religion as nothing more than a small but well-integrated element of a larger strategic game. If they'd developed religion realistically, they would have had to develop techs, buildings, and units realistically, and provide AIs that had far more sophisticated motivation and interactions with each other and with you. At least, to keep things even.

Where are the inquisitions and purges? Why can't I purge the heretics and rid my nation of religions I don't want?

Sheesh. You do know that the Inquisition actually had more of a political, behind-the-scenes influence? And that the numbers of people imprisoned for any real time or killed by the Inquisition were actually a small fraction compared to the secular authorities, under the impulse of wild crowds with a "hang 'em all" attitude? (One good source for this is Pieter Spierenburg's The Broken Spell: A Cultural and Anthorpological History of Preindustrial Europe.) And before you say, "ha, RCC apologist!" I'm not, nor ever have been RCC. In fact, I'm pagan: a witch, for three decades. Not exactly the most sympathetic sort to the RCC.

Before you seek out realism, consider whether you really want that in a game, by researching what's real in history and what's just good entertainment.

 

[Luv_Muffin]

PC is bad... but you want to bring back the inquisition?
I think you got it backwards.

 

[SomethingWitty]

What do you think prevents the spread of non-state religions under the theocracy civic?

 

[TCGTRF]

What do you think prevents the spread of non-state religions under the theocracy civic?

Oh, you're right! I guess I just didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

Tom

 

[Lars_Domus]

Oh, you're right! I guess I just didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition.

I was wondering how long it would take someone to make that reference. And by the way...


"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

***

A little Michael Palin-unit that worked the opposite way of missionaries would be delightful, though.

 

[Glinka]

A little Michael Palin-unit that worked the opposite way of missionaries would be delightful, though.

Not to mention a couple of military units entitled the Bunny Rabbit, and the Holy Hand Grenade.

 

[SomethingWitty]

A little Michael Palin-unit that worked the opposite way of missionaries would be delightful, though.

No, it's got to be Cardinal Fang.

 

[Tigerclaw]

There aren't enough humourous references in Civ4 for me. I loved the "You say you want a Revolution?": "Yes, you know it's gonna be alright", etc, in Civ3. A little Monty Python would've gone down well...

 

[Invisible Rhino]

There really should be a way to remove religions from your cities though. It should come at a huge cost in happiness/population, but there should be a way.

 

[Don Pelayo]

I was wondering how long it would take someone to make that reference. And by the way...


"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

***

A little Michael Palin-unit that worked the opposite way of missionaries would be delightful, though.

Heh, I had a similar post a few days ago, on an inquisitor mod.

What this unit MUST do in an updated version:

1) +1
2) -%20 Population (so in a city with 20 population, it's -4, and this makes sense)
3) Removes all buildings tied to the religion that has been removed.
4) Must be possible to choose what religion to remove (Spanish Inquisition didn't target Jews in the beginning, as they were actually helping the Christians because they feared their own safety. Eventually it was their turn later on to be expelled)
5) Chance of revolting and having a "fist" underneath the city for 3 turns.

Optional: Can only be used if the state is in Theocracy.

Some facts with respect to the Spanish Inquisition:
- In its approximately four centuries of existence, the Spanish Inquisition judged around 130,000 people.
- Less than 2% were actually condemned to death, less than 2,600 in total, which averages around 7 death penalties per year.
- Although some people were sentenced to prison or to row in the galleys, most sentences were spiritual, like doing a pilgrimage.
- Torture was used in around 10% of the cases, almost always only once, never more than twice, and using softer methods than those employed by the civil courts. We must take into account that torture was legally used everywhere in the world at the time, and it was considered an essencial method to obtain otherwise unattainable information, necessary to save innocents and punish evil-doers.


You can check the veracity of the above in the following links:

Article from Marvin R. O'Connell, professor emeritus of history at the University of Notre Dame -this one actually refers to the scene displayed above:
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Dossier/1112-96/article2.html

Wikipedia Encyclopedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

Article from Agostino Borromeo, History Professor at the University of La Sapienza in Rome (in Spanish):
http://www.paxtv.org/documentos/junio_2004/doc28_15_06_04.htm


Regards

 

[drahnier]

Do the later religions like christianity and islam ever actually become wide-spread in the world in any civ 4 game?

Since religions obviously spread a lot easier (possibly exclusively) to cities that don't already have a religion, either hinduism or buddhism naturally always seems to become the world-dominating one.

 

[Lars_Domus]

- Torture was used in around 10% of the cases, almost always only once, never more than twice, and using softer methods than those employed by the civil courts.

Yes, such as the fluffy pillow and the dreaded comfy chair!

@Glinka: I can see the entry in the Civ IV expansion's Civilopedia now:
"Holy Hand Grenade (Gunpowder units)
Strenth: 12
Movement: 1
Special abilities:
Unique unit for the Holy Roman Empire
Replaces Grenadier
- +50% attack vs. Carnivorous rodent units
- Must count to three before attacking"

@SomethingWitty: Why not have all three cardinals, then? There's three guys in most units.

Ok, ok, I'll quit now!


Seriously, though. Why is not being able to remove religions from your cities such a big deal? The disadvantages of an unwanted religion aren't that big.

 

[Invisible Rhino]

Why not have all three cardinals, then? There's three guys in most units.

LOL!!!!!!

As long as one is wearing goggles. "CARDINAL BIGGLES!"

 

[drahnier]

On the subject of humorous little additions to the game, have you noticed Al Gore on the "the internet" icon?

I assume it's Al Gore because it looks like him and there was that whole joke online about him claiming to have invented the internet, which i have no idea where it came from.

 

[jerx]

On the subject of humorous little additions to the game, have you noticed Al Gore on the "the internet" icon?

I assume it's Al Gore because it looks like him and there was that whole joke online about him claiming to have invented the internet, which i have no idea where it came from.

Al Gore was was reported to have said he developed /invented the internet. This may have been a misquote re one of the forerunners of the internet he did champion. Nonetheless this has become part of American folklore (as an example of a pompous politician's boast).

I really do not want to get into the politics around this issue, but simply to answer your question.