Intelligence Agencies and Security Bureaus...

[Metal Alloy Man]

I know this should probably go in the minor suggestions thread but I wanted to do a poll on it. Do you guys think Intelligence Agencies and Security Bureaus should give a stability bonus. I personally think that if Jails and Courthouses do, these buildings should too. They all help ensure the safety and security of your nation and for this reason they should give stability bonuses, the question now is how much. Thoughts???

 

[kbk]

Yep. While you could have them help the cities category, its possible you can make them help the foreign category instead or also. Thus representing foreign and/or domestic spying.

 

[Bob III]

It makes sense.

 

[KnightoftheStar]

I think that Intelligence Agencies should always give one but give a bigger bonus if you are running Nationalism as a symbol of the power of the state, Security Bureaus should give one under Police State and give a ding under Universal Suffrage or Freedom of Speech as signs of people being restive with symbols of an oppressive government.

 

[Al-Iskander]

I think that Intelligence Agencies should always give one but give a bigger bonus if you are running Nationalism as a symbol of the power of the state, Security Bureaus should give one under Police State and give a ding under Universal Suffrage or Freedom of Speech as signs of people being restive with symbols of an oppressive government.

I think what you're talking about sounds more like happiness vs. unhappiness.

In my understanding, stability (in the RFC sense) is more about the viability and the cohesiveness of the state, which uses Intelligence Agencies (against foreign threats) and Security Bureaus (against domestic ones) quite vigorously no matter how liberal/oppressive the state's government might be. A good example would be how both the Soviet KGB and the American CIA both could be described as defenders of the state, despite their home states having radically different governments.

Anyway, I think they should give a bonus, but one that doesn't hinge on form of government, or at least doesn't give a penalty for liberal ones.

That's my 2c

 

[Úmarth]

I think a bonus and then an extra bonus under police state is a good idea.

 

[onedreamer]

I think instability is caused by the population, and these 2 buildings have little to no influence on the population, so I would vote no (at least not the I.A.). Of course I am the only one ^^

 

[SadoMacho]

There are no Intelligence Agencies or Security Bureaus in Warlords and vanilla, so this would be a to big difference between BtS and the others.

I most of the time have no more collaps of my empires now, not like in the beginning of stability, so why add this?

 

[blizzrd]

There are no Intelligence Agencies or Security Bureaus in Warlords and vanilla, so this would be a to big difference between BtS and the others.

I have no problem with BtS being superior to Warlords and vanilla. BtS has been out for quite a long time, it's not like people can't pick it up for next to nix today.

As a sign of the times:

Please note that the Civ4 - Warlords forum has been merged into the Civ4 - General Discussions forum. Please post Warlords related general discussions into Civ4 General from now on.

We consolidate the forums from time to time based on the amount of activity in the forum. In this case, Warlords came out nearly two years ago and most people have moved on to Beyond the Sword.

Seems like the times are moving past vanilla and warlords...

I most of the time have no more collaps of my empires now, not like in the beginning of stability, so why add this?

My empires don't often collapse either, but why should that count against the idea of enhancing security bureaus and intelligence agency?

And I would say that the question is actually "why not?" rather than "why?"

Security bureaus are pretty late game city improvements in any case, so they are only going to be of great use for late-game attempts to create very big empires - which currently are almost impossible to achieve under the existing stability rules. So enhancing them to also improve stability is not a very large imbalance to the current situation.

I ignore them completely currently, becase they are not at all worth the investment in hammers for what they deliver. But I would be tempted, or rather probably focused on building them if they enhanced stability. I used to ignore Jails in much the same way in regular BtS, but always build them in RFC.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I always build intelligence agencies (2 turns in most of my cities) because they help vastly with espionage points...stealing techs from France or Netherlands late game is a breeze. That being said, security bureaus are useless (I just keep a spy around) because I usually have so many idle workers who can repair sabotaged improvements in a jiffy. The proposed stability bonus would be good (maybe slightly less than jails or courthouses, if it's possible). It'll also buffer the AI's stability more (I routinely see France building security bureaus more than intelligence agencies) when I collapse their empire.

 

[KnightoftheStar]

Maybe some unhappiness in more liberal forms of government but still gives stability bonus, although I would think a bigger one when working under a Police State as those kinds of governments really integrated such organizations into daily life that other government options didn't historically speaking.

 

[Al-Iskander]

Maybe some unhappiness in more liberal forms of government but still gives stability bonus, although I would think a bigger one when working under a Police State as those kinds of governments really integrated such organizations into daily life that other government options didn't historically speaking.

That's something I could get behind.

(In game terms! In game terms! I <3 FREEDOM! Don't eat me CIA! Don't tase me bro!)

But seriously: some sort of bonus always, bigger bonus under some systems, unhappiness penalty under others. The unhappiness penalty should come from Free Speach, but in the interest of simplicity, let's keep the penalty/bonus in the same column and give the bonus to Nationhood, especially since running Police State and Free Speech at the same time (if I remember right) is a bullet train to instability in RFC.

I think that'd be neat.

 

[onedreamer]

I always build intelligence agencies (2 turns in most of my cities) because they help vastly with espionage points...stealing techs from France or Netherlands late game is a breeze. That being said, security bureaus are useless (I just keep a spy around) because I usually have so many idle workers who can repair sabotaged improvements in a jiffy. The proposed stability bonus would be good (maybe slightly less than jails or courthouses, if it's possible). It'll also buffer the AI's stability more (I routinely see France building security bureaus more than intelligence agencies) when I collapse their empire.

Pacifist, why do you always have to be so extreme as to define a building useless ? Bureaus provide +8 espionage points, that doesn't look so useless if you really aim at stealing techs.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

But that's as opposed to IA's 8+ 50% of whatever you already had in the city (jail + courthouse + assigned spies)--a much better investment hammer-wise. I do build security bureaus but only in my top 3-4 cities with espionage, especially one with the Interpol.

 

[onedreamer]

Pacifist yeah, it's true that IA adds MORE to espionage points, but it isn't true that Bureaus are useless. At least +8 EP aren't useless in my book. I'd choose IA if I'd have to choose, but normally I don't have to. I choose +16 EP + 50%

 

[zuraffo]

I think both of these buildings works more like counter-instability than stability boost. So here's my suggestion:

Security Bureau:
- reduce the instability caused by having more than one religion in a city, preferrably by one religion: i.e. if you have two religion in a city it counts as one, if three counts as two, etc.
- reduce the instability caused by unhappiness (whip, draft, war wariness, etc)
- for each bureau, the instability caused by number of cities is reduced by 5%. Capped at 65% (or some other value)
- - citysize / 5 round down happiness.
- effects are greater state property.
- no happiness penalty under police state.

Intelligence Agency
- instability caused by having too many contacts with other civilization is reduced
- instability caused by fighting another civilization is reduced
- instability caused by having an unstable vassal is reduced
- effects are greater under nationhood.
- effects are lesser under free speech and free market.

 

[Tboy]

I think both of these buildings works more like counter-instability than stability boost. So here's my suggestion:

Security Bureau:
- reduce the instability caused by having more than one religion in a city, preferrably by one religion: i.e. if you have two religion in a city it counts as one, if three counts as two, etc.
- reduce the instability caused by unhappiness (whip, draft, war wariness, etc)
- for each bureau, the instability caused by number of cities is reduced by 5%. Capped at 65% (or some other value)
- - citysize / 5 round down happiness.
- effects are greater state property.
- no happiness penalty under police state.

Intelligence Agency
- instability caused by having too many contacts with other civilization is reduced
- instability caused by fighting another civilization is reduced
- instability caused by having an unstable vassal is reduced
- effects are greater under nationhood.
- effects are lesser under free speech and free market.

Seems good, with the exception of one or two - why would a free market make an Intelligence Agency less effective?

 

[zuraffo]

maybe because free market allows more foreign traffic thus making intelligence control more difficult?

Actually an argument can be made for the reverse i.e. more foreign traffic made collecting intelligence easier, so I am of two minds...

Thoughts?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Boy we're going to have all police states with nationhood.

It's fine but I think what I call the Ideal Western Society (US/enviromentalism/free speech/free religion/emancipation) needs a really strong boost (I rarely get more than 3 stars) if we're to counteract the bonuses for Nationhood/Police State/communism.

 

[blizzrd]

It's fine but I think what I call the Ideal Western Society (US/enviromentalism/free speech/free religion/emancipation) needs a really strong boost (I rarely get more than 3 stars) if we're to counteract the bonuses for Nationhood/Police State/communism.

This is certainly true. In regular BTS, Universal Suffrage/Free Speech/Free Religion/Emancipation gave me the best economy. I don't include environmentalism though because this civic I never found worth switching to.

What with the penalties for switching to democracy and the not-overly beneficial economic reasons for democracy, I rarely go there in RFC. Late game in RFC I'm almost always either in Representation/Bureaucracy/Caste System/Pacifism or Police State/Nationalism/Slavery/Communism.