Invisible?

[Ecofarm]

I have not tested alot, but I hope someone has.

What is the deal with hidden and invisible?

Is there a difference between "Sees hidden animals" and "Sees invisible" (which does not exist). Is "Revelation" the ONLY way to see invis units? It seems rediculas that a Tier III Sun Sorcery spell is the only way to see invis...


I ask these questions because I recently wiped out 3 civs (MP) with 3 Shades. I just went in, declared war, and killed every mage in the empire (and because I was grigori, I killed the champions too). Granted, non-Grigori Shades cannot kill Royal Guards or Stygian Guards, but those generally come late (and are a side note for most strats), and only on a HUB map could they be used to prevent the shades from terrorizing the countryside.

Alot of units can "see hidden animals". Can these also see invisible?

Side note: When Sidar casted their world spell, units were not made "invisible"? Because I saw them after they attacked. (Or maybe I just had a unit that could "See invisible").

This may be a n00b question, but thanks for any answers in advance.

 

[Grey Fox]

Marksmen can see invisible units. I believe Hawks can too.

And I think the Hidden promotion is removed after attacks. At least the normal Hidden promotion is.

EDIT: Invisible units used to be visible in Malakim territory, not sure if that still applies since Sun mana has been implemented.

 

[Ecofarm]

Marksmen are too late to help vs. Shades (require Precision).

Hawks seeing them seems too easy. What are they? 5 hammers and you are immune to invis?

The invis promo is not removed after attacking or casting, and the Sider World Spell description says "invisible" (at least in one place - I forget where).

 

[EvilBob22]

Side note: When Sidar casted their world spell, units were not made "invisible"? Because I saw them after they attacked. (Or maybe I just had a unit that could "See invisible").

Invisible units become visible when they attack and go back invisible at the start of their next turn. I could be wrong, but I think the Sidar world spell is only a one time invisible too -- after turning visible again, they don't go back to being invisible (unless they are a shadow or something else with "natural" invisibility).

Edit: or not -- you beat me to the post

 

[Ecofarm]

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood the mechanics of "invisible". You become vis and go back to invis the next turn?

But then why did my Shades remain invis as I killed entire empires? I'm sure the civs I were wrecking could not see my shades, ever. They said so on chat, and they would have killed me if they could see me for 1 turn - they had fireballs, etc.

EDIT: I mad edit, sorry if it results in cross-posting. I don't mean to decieve anyone <smiley removed in protest of santa hats>.

 

[EvilBob22]

Well at least that is the way it is supposed to work -- I haven't really looked at it in game...

Could they have been trying to protect their cities without regards to what a marksman promoted unit actually does? In other words, digging in to defend the city in stead of risking units on the attack (and "protecting" their weak units inside the city).

And yeah, it is the 28th -- Santa should be done for the year...

 

[Ecofarm]

Defenders couldn't attack. They couldn't see me - ever. I just killed units in cities, every turn, until they were all dead. Now, these were Grigori-Shades, so they could kill champs, etc even in a city (combat 5, etc). But even if they were not Grig-Shades, they could kill all the little units (read: mages) in the entire empire - with impunity.

While this is great fun for the Shade player (I wouldn't mind doing it for a few more games- if only to read the hysterical chats from opponents), it's kinda broke.

Anyone want to test what can and cannot see invis? Because if see-invis requires Tier III Sun Sorcery, well... there's only like 3 units (Arcane Heros) that could even hook-up Sun mana and have a Tier III Sorcerer in time. More things would need to see invis (but not cheap crap like hawks).

 

[EvilBob22]

Ahh -- chat messages -- so this was in MP? Then you KNOW that they couldn't see your shades, not just a case of thinking that the AI couldn't see them. Sounds like a bug to me.

 

[Ecofarm]

They couldn't see them. I'm sure. They were hysterical: "WTH! I can't see any units! WTH is KILLING ALL MY DOODS!"

My reply: "I'm in ur base, killing ur doods!"

Much fun (for me).

If Tier III Sun Sorcery is required to see invis, an AI couldn't have done any better against my Grig-Shades-of-D00M. Even regular Shades are pretty awesome.


ps. Make sure, while beelining Esus and Guilds, you build a stable and a few horsemen - to swoop in and burn those empty cities. Additionally, horses can be used to hit and weaken a strong defender, who will then be targeted by the Shade - byebye hero. Although, this isn't neccesarily required - most people quit when you kill all their adepts and mages. Side note: Shades can pillage via gold spending, so you might want to pillage their iron and bronze before the killing spree starts.

 

[rusty217]

You were winning in multiplayer using hero shadows???

The only thing wrong with that is i thought they were for council of esus only and grigori can't adopt religions???

Well you just got lucky, it's not hard to prevent shadows from killing your strong units, and they are national units that can't defend so if you had some good opposition then they could have just destroyed your civilization becuase 3 of your heroes wouldn't even be able to defend your civ.

 

[Morganknight]

I'm pretty sure that Sand Lion summons can see invisibility as well.

 

[Ecofarm]

The only thing wrong with that is i thought they were for council of esus only and grigori can't adopt religions???

Well you just got lucky, it's not hard to prevent shadows from killing your strong units, and they are national units that can't defend so if you had some good opposition then they could have just destroyed your civilization becuase 3 of your heroes wouldn't even be able to defend your civ.

Unrestricted leaders. Grigori civ cannot build temples. Esus provides a non-dying religion spreader. Shades do not require a temple to build.

We always play unrestricted leaders. It's so much fun to mix and match a hundred strats.

I got lucky? I've done it more than once. Exactly what strong units are you referring to on turn 110-120 that can survive a str10, Combat 5. If I have to leave a couple stygian or royals alive in cities, who cares? Everythign else is dead. Civ is stone-aged.


True, my defense was light at home. However, when the second civ I was destroying launched all of it's units at my homelands, in desperation, my shades killed them all before they got to my homelands. Chased em down with move 4 and chompy-chomp.

Of course, I could beef up my home defenses with some micromanagement. Throw a couple champs/axes, taskmasters, and horses in a few cities, and they should live till the Shades get there to slay all. I could also research summoning and build Gibbon, to have a pit beast handy.


The point of this thread is not Shades, though - it's INVISIBILTY.

Who sees it??

So far, the possibilities are:

Sand Lions (Tier III Sun? = Revelation anyway)
Hawks (I HOPE not - it would be lame to make invis useless with a 5 hammer unit)
Marksmen (Too late, expensive tech - Precision)

I suppose it's worldbuilder time. Thanks in advance for any futher help figuring this out.

EDIT: Perhaps lower "Revelation" to tier II. Then someone would need to hook up a sun mana node and have mages. That seems about right. Also, some uncommon tier 3 units could see invis, maybe.

I don't want to make invis pointless (like if hawks could see invis), but as is, (if only "Revelation" works) - it is basically "immunity to attack" promotion.

 

[rusty217]

I got lucky? I've done it more than once. Exactly what strong units are you referring to on turn 110-120 that can survive a str10, Combat 5. If I have to leave a couple stygian or royals alive in cities, who cares? Everythign else is dead. Civ is stone-aged.

I never meant strong units, i meant shadows always target the weakest unit in a stack so some weak summons or a few scouts or even workers would have been attacked instead of the strong units, then while your shadows cannot kill strong units the other civ could either attack your cities or try to reveal your units.

Although you are right, invisibility is overpowered, maybe there could be spells in other spheres to see invis or give some of the units in the recon line the see invis promotion.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Sand Lions (Tier III Sun? = Revelation anyway)
Hawks (I HOPE not - it would be lame to make invis useless with a 5 hammer unit)
Marksmen (Too late, expensive tech - Precision)

Hawks work. Or, if not, it is a bug. The problem with them is that it requires executing the aerial recon mission, which only paranoid humans will do every turn, so you should get in a kill or two before the hawks get mobilized. I'm not sure if the AI understands to use hawks to see invis, but I doubt it.

I'm not sure why you think sand lions on Sun 2 is not a significant advantage over revelation on Sun 3--the techs to get from sorcery/summoning to archmages aren't quick. But if you suspect invisibility will be a problem, getting to Sand lions and having one sun mana shouldn't be too hard... (desert requirement might require a scorching, though.)

Also, don't complain that religion specific units are extra strong in Grigori hands--that's the risk you use for having unrestricted leaders option on. It's cool if it's fun, but it is specifically not taken into consideration when designing stuff.

P.S.-The unit you were using was a shadow, shades are a specific unit for the Sidar, which you should try if you like invisibility.

 

[Ecofarm]

Yea, it's shadow.

I thought sand lions were sun 3. As sun 2, at least something pre-tier 3 can see them.

Should hawks, a throw-away unit that is dirt cheap and tier 0, reveal a tier 3 religious unit?


How about a later bird that can see invis (something magical). And perhaps a recon promotion available after combat 3 or sentry.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I personally think that they should add an upgraded bird anyway, one that can actually attack enemy units. It might be good for the basic bird to only see hidden animals, and the later version to see all invisible units.

It might also be nice if the ability to see all invisible was a promotion availible to birds (if you go ahead and add promotions to aerial units like in BtS).

 

[xienwolf]

You have to purposefully USE the hawk though. So that is the Balance option. You can hit them, and unless they have a Hawk prepared and nearby, and RAEALIZE that they were hit by a unit they cannot see, but might still be there, they will not think to use the hawk and find you.

I would like it if a hawk could not Rebase and Recon both in the same turn. That would mean they will most likely have to take 1 turn to build it, another to move it to the victim city, and another to actual recon. Instead, if they have 1 left over from early exploration then they can rebase and recon the moment they realize what happened.

 

[Playciv2948]

A hawk recon mission sees Courtesans (even from 3 away) and then any unit can hit once in sight.

Sand lions and marksmen both see Courtesans but only 1 tile away.

New unit Phoenix or other magical bird and a slightly harder tech should be required since Courtesans are so hard to get on a dead-end tech path. Courtesans should also be able to walk past units (in same room) that do not see them. Sand lions and marksmen should have 2 and 3+ instead of 1 tile vision range. Maybe add more units that can see 1 tile away (rangers?). Also, not everyone should be able to hit them once they are seen, just the people who can see them. This will prevent hawks from being the end of Courtesans.

 

[xienwolf]

I do like having it so that only the people who actually can see you are able to attack you, but if that was done I'd like to be able to attach a Hawk to a unit (Great Commander style) to enable them to attack an invisible unit. Maybe as a small balance to this, you lose the promotion (and thus Hawk) after the attack.

If only the unit who sees them can attack an invisible unit, it allows for a few more units to be able to do so earlier in the game, because they are weaker and will thus be useless to do more than realize the attacker is there and who sent it.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah Hawks have to use their Mission to see invisible, but sure it might be a little early counter vs invisible. Though it's the first thing your shadow will kill in a city after maybe workers.