Is an early Wonder required to establish economy on Emp?

[cleverhandle]

(Questions/comments relate to single-player, Standard Continents, Emperor, no tweaked settings, random civs...)

After playing a bunch of starts from various civs on Emperor (as well as following those that others posted in my previous thread), I can't shake the feeling that a Wonder play of some sort is more or less required at that level in order to create a sound economy after initial expansion. There appear to be plenty of possibilities (Oracle->Casting/CoL, Pyramids, GrLighthouse), and the choice would certainly depend on how the details of each game shake out. But is it accurate to say that you need some kind of Wonder to get yourself established?

I'd like to think it's not true - I've read Ision's old Wonder Addiction article and it seemed like very good advice in C3C. But I simply don't see an alternative in Civ4, and it seems mainly to do with the happiness limitations on my population and the correspondingly small economy. Even in games where I do (what seems to me to be) a good job teching and chopping and getting my second and third cities down early and developed well, the fourth city starts to strain the budget and by the fifth city my economy is grinding. Inevitably, if I just try build my way to a late Classical Age war, the AI's are a generation+ ahead of my military at that point (e.g. their Maces to my Swords and Cats), and then it all looks even worse - taking down any one of them would require overwhelming force (and hammer expenditure) and then the others will just keep zooming along. Some things I've tried, to no avail...

1) Cottages - I've had games where I really push to get cottages down early, but when your cities max out at 4 or 5 pop there's only so many cottages you can reasonably work. It seems to be the right idea, but except in really fortunate starts I can't seem to get enough population to make it work.

2) Early, limited, conquest - I've gotten to the point where I can pretty confidently take an AI city or two near my border by jumping on it with Axes before the AI land grab is over and the AI's start heavy military builds. But it doesn't help. Basically, it just gets me a fifth or sixth city (that tanks my economy) that I could usually have settled peacefully instead, but at the cost of a dozen or so troops and a PO'd neighbor. Unless the nearby target city is exceptionally lux-rich or a capitol or a shrine, I'm not gaining anything significant from that captured city except ill will.

3) Pillaging - If anything, this seems even worse than actual conquest. Early on, the AI doesn't appear to have many hamlets/towns and most other improvements are worth very little - the gains from pillaging are rarely able to cover the costs of military support and supply for my troops. So then, even if my pillaging campaign is very efficient hammer-wise, I'm left with basically the same poor economy I always had, plus a PO'd neighbor to boot.

4) (Almost) beeline to Alphabet - Alphabet seems to be the one tech that the human can reliably research before the AI (albeit at considerable cost), even after working in whatever development techs are most important for a particular start. But then when I get there, Alphabet itself is invariably the only thing that I have to trade. If I trade it immediately, I can pretty much get tech parity, but it doesn't really solve the core problem of having too small an economy - all that happens is that the (now tech-trading) AI's zoom past me again and leave me 5+ techs behind within 30 turns.

5) What I haven't really tried much of is spreading early religion - I can see how this could be a significant boost, but it would also seem to take at least until the Middle Ages to really see the best effect.

So, if you're doing well on Emp and not building an early Wonder to charge your economy (which with certain civs/maps really is difficult to do), what the heck are you doing to stay in the neighborhood of tech parity? I can see that eventually you'll nearly always need to start a war to expand past the half dozen cities you start with, but so far I can't even get to the point of being economically able to fight such a war without a Wonder play. So please, enlighten me...

 

[walkerjks]

1) Cottages - I've had games where I really push to get cottages down early, but when your cities max out at 4 or 5 pop there's only so many cottages you can reasonably work. It seems to be the right idea, but except in really fortunate starts I can't seem to get enough population to make it work.

Cottages can work very well on Emperor, with or without a wonder. A few things that I tend to do on Emperor that vary from the normal cottage spam tactics:

1) I don't start placing my 3rd settler until after I get pottery (unless I have another source of commerce, such as gold, gems, or silver). The maintenance costs get pretty onerous and your 3rd city can be enough to crater your research. I still chop-rush my workers and settlers (and escorts) as usual, but I won't build the city until I have a definite path out of the commerce hole. This may mean that within a couple turns of getting pottery, I may found 3 cities. This craters research, but I already have the workers ready to cottage them up.

2) After pottery, I may get mysticism (if I am not creative/did not start with it) and masonry. I will certainly try to build The Pyramids if I can, but it's not always possible.

3) If I don't get The Pyramids, I'll grab drama. The Pyramids obviously let you grow to size 8 or so, but drama is a fine alternative. If your natural happiness limit is 5, running 20% culture with theaters built will make your happiness limit 9 (7 even without the theaters). Yes, that's a 20% shave to science, but you will be working almoist twice the cottages, which will more than offset this. And as you get happiness from other sources (hereditary rule or traded +happiness resources), you can bring that down to 10% or 0%.

If you tend to go for early alphabet anyway (which makes a lot of sense since you can easily trade it for most of the early techs you skipped), drama is a small step away once you get alphabet.

 

[Islandia]

I have found that on emperor I can reliably get the pyramids out of my second city so I usually beeline for that because it is such a powerful boost. However, on immortal and deity, I have never been able to get a single wonder (though I don't try that hard), so those game level have weaned me off of my wonder reliance. Of course my strategies on immortal and deity aren't much better - they rely on having a financial or philosophical aggressive civ with an early UU that you can use to beat down the (preferably) two other civs you have on your continent at which point you do the slow tech catch up to the other 4 civs (on a standard map). After a few games of this, it got a bit boring so I have been doing mostly multiplayer where there is no unfair advantage for anyone (other than those super fast fingered simultaneous move guys

 

[cleverhandle]

1) I don't start placing my 3rd settler until after I get pottery... This may mean that within a couple turns of getting pottery, I may found 3 cities. This craters research, but I already have the workers ready to cottage them up.

Hmm... I try to time things pretty similarly - there's nothing worse than plunking down a couple of cities and realizing that you just increased your research time on Pots from 8 turns to 17 turns. So painful... So that doesn't seem like too much of an issue - it's more that, even with Pots, I just can't work enough cottages to keep the economy lively with 4-5 cities.

2) After pottery, I may get mysticism (if I am not creative/did not start with it) and masonry. I will certainly try to build The Pyramids if I can, but it's not always possible.

I suppose I could probably make a play at the Pyramids more frequently. At the moment, I really only consider it if I'm Industrious or have stone. But I guess there's always an outside chance of hitting it, and even if you don't you get cash back. Basically it's just an early way to build Wealth, then.

3) If I don't get The Pyramids, I'll grab drama. The Pyramids obviously let you grow to size 8 or so, but drama is a fine alternative. If your natural happiness limit is 5, running 20% culture with theaters built will make your happiness limit 9 (7 even without the theaters)... drama is a small step away once you get alphabet.

Now that I hadn't thought of at all. I had only ever really used theaters and the slider for war weariness purposes. But I can see the economy in what you describe. And the AI doesn't usually push for Drama very early either, so it's getting you some trade bait as well. Interesting...

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

[dar]

Obviously the most important thiung you can do economy wise is make sure you have enough cottages. When the situation allows, either my first city or capital is a cottage farm. Getting them out early really makes a differance.

My first target is code of laws, not for courthouses, but for caste system which lets me turn a high food city into a great scientist factory. Initially that city would have 2 scientists from library, and then up to 3 or 4 in the early game depending on the food situation. This really helps keep the research rate up when new cities start to eat into your income.

Aside from that your next important target is getting your population cap up. The quickest way to do this is of course with the pyramids, but as you've discovered this is not a surefire thing at Emperor. You'll need to hit either Monarchy or Drama as early as possible. Which you choose to go for depends on your strategy for that game. If playing peacefully I prefer Drama first, if warmongering then Monarchy since its on the path to Feudalism.

 

[cleverhandle]

Of course my strategies on immortal and deity aren't much better - they rely on having a financial or philosophical aggressive civ with an early UU that you can use to beat down the (preferably) two other civs you have on your continent at which point you do the slow tech catch up to the other 4 civs (on a standard map).

Wow. I can't see how I'd accomplish this even on Emperor. Like I was describing in my OP, it always seems to me like early wars (i.e. pre-Construction) actually end up hurting me financially. You must be really speedy and hammer-efficient in your beatdowns to be able to finish them before the AI's have teched up. Would you be able to provide a rough timeline (by dates or techs) for these beatdown campaigns? Also, about how long do you end up taking to catch up to the civs on other continents?

Thanks.

 

[cleverhandle]

Obviously the most important thiung you can do economy wise is make sure you have enough cottages. When the situation allows, either my first city or capital is a cottage farm. Getting them out early really makes a differance.

I agree. I can "feel the boost" when I get early cottages down. It's the slightly longer-term that's the issue.

My first target is code of laws, not for courthouses, but for caste system which lets me turn a high food city into a great scientist factory. Initially that city would have 2 scientists from library, and then up to 3 or 4 in the early game depending on the food situation. This really helps keep the research rate up when new cities start to eat into your income.

Interesting. I've been wondering about Caste System lately myself, and whether I could use it to good effect to handle this part of the game. Are you building academies with your GS's or taking straight techs? Also, when I was thinking about Caste System I was wondering whether Merchants would be the better choice over scientists, at least after one or maybe two academies. It seems that by the time you hit the Middle Ages, the AI's already have a couple of 12+ pop cities up, and a trade mission might net you enough cash to run a research burn for quite a while. In any event, are you taking CoL before Currency?

You'll need to hit either Monarchy or Drama as early as possible. Which you choose to go for depends on your strategy for that game. If playing peacefully I prefer Drama first, if warmongering then Monarchy since its on the path to Feudalism.

Monarchy always seems like such a bummer to research, though, because the AI's invariably gun for it themselves and leave me no trade opportunities. Ditto Feudalism. But certainly those two get you into a warmongering position pretty quickly. When you decide to go for Monarchy/warmongering are you then ignoring Alphabet for the near future?

Thanks.

 

[Oggums]

Also, when I was thinking about Caste System I was wondering whether Merchants would be the better choice over scientists, at least after one or maybe two academies.

I always use the Merchants as soon as possible. Currency comes later than writing, however, so I start by dropping the slider and using scientists. As the newer cities get markets, I'll start using more merchants instead, and slowly raise my slider back up.

Eventually I drop the specialists in most cities, but early on I can't seem to function without them. Your cities are limited by health/happiness anyway, as well as costing less maintenance if you keep the size down, so you get a lot more out of those specialists in the beginning.

As far as wonders go, I play it by ear. Pyramids would be ideal. Sometimes it's Oracle->Code of Laws, but if the neighbor civs are aggressive I just aim for military and conquer. Conquering tanks the economy fast, but you can still research at 0% with the scientists you get access to after building libraries. Two scientists in a few cities adds up to more than you'd think.

By the way, I've lost every Emperor game in the end to space race. I've always played continents and invariably there's somebody overseas who just shoots ahead at the end.

 

[Islandia]

Wow. I can't see how I'd accomplish this even on Emperor. Like I was describing in my OP, it always seems to me like early wars (i.e. pre-Construction) actually end up hurting me financially. You must be really speedy and hammer-efficient in your beatdowns to be able to finish them before the AI's have teched up. Would you be able to provide a rough timeline (by dates or techs) for these beatdown campaigns? Also, about how long do you end up taking to catch up to the civs on other continents?
Thanks.

Well absolutely the easiest to win on deity (haha "easiest") is the Incans. They are aggressive and financial. As I mentioned earlier I win maybe 1 in 4 games on deity so even starting as them is no guarantee of victory. You basically have to hope that you start on a big enough continent to be able to eventually get the tech lead by being twice as big as any of your competitors that might start on other continents.

Early strategy is to forgo the worker and just start on the barracks right away. When you find your first opponent ~turn 10 - 15 you will be able to steal a worker from them flat out. If you are lucky you can sometimes get two, but the first one is all you really need. Then hole up that quecha in a forest (preferably on a hill) near their city and watch their archers kill themselves on it. I have had that first quecha kill 4 or more before reinforcements arrive. The really silly thing about the computer is that it doesn't realize that warriors are a better proposition against quechas than archers so it will keep buildling one and slamming it into the quecha and letting you get 2 or 3 promotions (combat I automatic, anti archer, medic,
combat 2 in that order). Of course I do start off researching bronze working so I can see exactly where their bronze is. The worker meantime is back home chopping away if the barracks isn't done and then spewing a constant line of quechas out.

By turn 20 (on normal speed) I will have 5 quechas outside their 3rd (yes 3rd) city. That is enough to overwhelm the two archers they always keep in their as base defense. Once that is down just make sure they are not able to hook up bronze and try to take their second city. By turn 30 you should have a stack of 10 quechas marauding around anyway. Once they are down to the capital just leave 4 or 5 around it in the woods to keep them from expanding and by now you will have hopefully met and found your other neighbor on your continent. Depending on whether that neighbor has hooked up bronze you should declare war on him as well. If he has hooked up bronze you will (with that stolen worker of yours) also need to hook it up and just churn out a few axemen to cut off the bronze supply from them quecha + axemen in the woods will kill off any number of retaliations once you have cut off the bronze. From there it is just necessary to slowly take city by city when you have the means to do so. As a financial civ you can start working the river floodplains cottages pretty fast. Tech order would be either mediation or bronze working, (dont' need iron working just watch carefully to see if a plains or grassland is starting to be mined and cut it off , agriculture or hunting as needed, animal husbandry then straight up the tech tree to construction. With one or two catapults and your swarm of now 20+ quecha you will be able to take the capitals and then just hunker down from there. I will pull up the exact dates from my last game later. With Incans I usually then try for spaceship. If I'm playing Alexander I usually try for cultural victory. If you can squeeze 10-12 cities on your island (you will get at least 6 from the computers), that is enough of a base to be able to beat out the other comps, because if they are alone they will have at most 6 cities and if they are on a continent with other comps they will usually at least beat each other up a bit. Tech parity doesn't come until very late, and the apollo program is never built by me first, but I have gotten down that whole beeline to space elevator, then beeline to fusion thing down pretty well now. Only wonders I even try for are kremlin and space elevator. Save all engineers for those.

 

[dar]

Interesting. I've been wondering about Caste System lately myself, and whether I could use it to good effect to handle this part of the game. Are you building academies with your GS's or taking straight techs?

Actually I usually build only one or two acadamies, then settle the rest as super scientists in my highest commerce producing city. I then build the palace in that city and use the beuro civic. Add in Oxford Uni and you get a city with insane beaker production.
It not uncommon for me to have 10 or 12 scientist superspecialists in that city (more if philo) by the late game. Each of those gets a base of 6 beakers, plus 3 for representation, +200% for library, uni, acadamy and oxford university (+ another 50% from observatories and labs later). Thats 27 beakers for each superspecialist, as well as the extra hammers in what is usually a low production city.
The high commerce of the city is multiplied by the beurocracy bonus (50%) before other bonuses, and then increased by +200% for science buildings, and another +50% later on from observatories and labs. By the late game that city is producing more than 700 beakers a turn by itself.

Also, when I was thinking about Caste System I was wondering whether Merchants would be the better choice over scientists, at least after one or maybe two academies. It seems that by the time you hit the Middle Ages, the AI's already have a couple of 12+ pop cities up, and a trade mission might net you enough cash to run a research burn for quite a while.

Not really, as I said earlier each great scientist is worth 27 beakers per turn. In my experience early trade missions rarely make over 1000 gold. Within just 40 turns the super specialist has matched that and it will be there for the rest of the game.

If I'm about to head into a war I might go for a merchant instead to pay for upgrade costs, but otherwise I concentrate entirely on scientists in the mid-early game. Late game I usually switch to engineer specialists.

In any event, are you taking CoL before Currency?

Almost always. I tend to use the writing & priesthood route to CoL most of the time which is faster. It also leaves the Oracle slingshot route available to you. Of course on Emporer the AI will usually beat you to it, but you may pick it up occaisionly if you hit priesthood before them and use forest chops.

Monarchy always seems like such a bummer to research, though, because the AI's invariably gun for it themselves and leave me no trade opportunities. Ditto Feudalism. But certainly those two get you into a warmongering position pretty quickly. When you decide to go for Monarchy/warmongering are you then ignoring Alphabet for the near future?

If I'm warmongering Monarchy is usually an early target since I tend to have fairly large garrisons in my border cities, and obsolete units in the inner cities. It's a quick way to make a lot of extra happiness available for those cities. I would usually grab Alphabet afterwards, but not always. Even when I prioritise Monarchy I tend to reach Alphabet before at least some of the AIs.

 

[sandman_civ]

Apart from what you guys said, war IMO is very important in emperor. I find that successful war right up to the modern ages helps a great deal with economy not only for the gold you get for captured cities, but the fact you are taking over mature cities and getting the profit already. My initial burst is up to about 5 or 6 cities (depending if I have a gold or gem tile or 2) then I take over my neighbor with swords and cats, after this I go for another battle with knights and cats, then cavalry/cannons etc. What is VERY important is being clever about war - if the opponent is using hordes of horse archers (I find this very often) then build lots of spearmen counters or elephants if you have ivory. You cannot afford to be careless in war, and heal your units whenever possible, as you will always be outnumbered in emperor.

I am also a fan of great merchants, my record so far is 2300 gold for one trip. Also cottages are important as long as you have farms or enough food to support all the cottages, an elementary mistake sometimes I make myself is to build too many cottages along the river only to find you are stagnant later on.

Another tactic I used sometimes is to spread religion with a powerful neighbor, and become helluva chummy with them, even to the point of defensive alliances, you will be amazed when that kicks in - their hordes vs another AI's hordes, and usually that AI's ally, takes 3 civs out of the game for quite a while. Gives you some breathing space to either knock off someone else or help your mate in the war. Helps ultimately in the space race win as well.

 

[Quantum7]

It sounds like you need to focus on either getting bigger cities (drama / monarchy / pyramids to increase happiness beyond 4-5 quickly) for more cottages or reducing costs (code of laws mainly).

 

[PugFugly]

Then hole up that quecha in a forest (preferably on a hill) near their city and watch their archers kill themselves on it.

According to this unit listing- http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/ , Quechas don't get defensive bonuses. Is this incorrect?

 

[Islandia]

According to this unit listing- http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/units/ , Quechas don't get defensive bonuses. Is this incorrect?

That is flat out wrong. There is a reason Incas are so feared in multiplayer when they start next to you. Once they are in a forest near your land your only recourse to get them out is to hope to hook up copper. At least with other warriors (even aggressive ones) you can sacrifice one warrior to hurt them a bit and then have an archer kill them off if they are in the woods.

 

[Oggums]

Apart from what you guys said, war IMO is very important in emperor. I find that successful war right up to the modern ages helps a great deal with economy not only for the gold you get for captured cities, but the fact you are taking over mature cities and getting the profit already. My initial burst is up to about 5 or 6 cities (depending if I have a gold or gem tile or 2) then I take over my neighbor with swords and cats, after this I go for another battle with knights and cats, then cavalry/cannons etc.

On one hand, I totally agree. On the other, I'm having trouble supporting an ancient war with 10-15 swords like I used to before the last patch. I can no longer just build 2 production cities and crank out military right from the start. But if I don't, they'll have longbows and loads of horse archers before I have enough raiders.