Is anyone else appalled by the Eurocentrism in Civ?

[Me,myself,and,I]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

I rest my case.

 

[johny smith]

Here is at least an introduction of race ideas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_interpretations_of_race

 

[johny smith]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

I rest my case.

But you don't seem to understand their are no defining traits to make broad groups. This is pseudo science trying to find a particular trait of entire group. Yes the US laws are a bunch of bull.

Or you can see in the case of history in the UK briefly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-miscegenation_laws#United_Kingdom

 

[bernie14]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_genetics

I rest my case.

yes, there are increased predispositions to certain medical conditions based on "race" (the word itself, IMO, seems to conjur a bias thinking) or if u prefer, groups that share more commun DNA, among condtions related to blood, sickle cell anemia and beta thallasemia come to mind, there are certain cancers that show increased predisposition in certain populations, neurological disorders such as MS and some studies have even shown that hypertension and diabetes may be increased in some populations (even if you take diet out of the equation), HOWEVER, sometimes it really does not matter how many "facts" someone points to, most people will be able to find some other "facts" to support their point of view.....that is, people will see things that they believe more often than believe things they see....(IMO)

 

[brianshapiro]

Johny, care to explain how race doesn't exist - particularly after talking about American racial views?

Its a popular argument in academia that race isn't biological but sociological, because -- they say -- there's as much genetic diversity within races as between them. So, 'race', having no biological basis, is only a useful way for cultures to categorize differences between people, and its completely arbitrary and socially constructed.

Personally I think its intellectually dishonest. It doesn't matter if there are differences within races, what we're talking about is gene pools. Gene pools exist in a real sense, there's some degree of historical segregation between different populations.

Its just such a popular argument because of people who want to inject politics into science (it isn't just conservatives who do that)

 

[johny smith]

Its a popular argument in academia that race isn't biological but sociological, because -- they say -- there's as much genetic diversity within races as between them. So, 'race', having no biological basis, is only a useful way for cultures to categorize differences between people, and its completely arbitrary and socially constructed.

Personally I think its intellectually dishonest. It doesn't matter if there are differences within races, what we're talking about is gene pools. Gene pools exist in a real sense, there's some degree of historical segregation between different populations.

Its just such a popular argument because of people who want to inject politics into science (it isn't just conservatives who do that)

Correct. Totally. But gene pools do not match any countries believed view on race. Each goes about deciding what is features of race.

 

[johny smith]

Basically it go back to photo I had before. Do you think they have black genetic disposition or white disposition? Are they black or white? The terms of color make no sense it relation to any "one drop rule". I know aka "black" and "white" marriages are not a big deal in Germany now. Turkish would be a bigger issue in Germany than "Black". If you go to Montana black is not as important minority as Native American. It pointless to debate if your American you grew up with what your social view on race others have different views.

 

[Svip]

The problem with the world is that it is eurocentric.

How? Europe named all the continents. Just sayin'.

If you want a eurocentric game, play Europa Universalis 3. Civ have never struck me as a 'centric' game of any sorts, as it is just random players picked by the developers to go out in a randomly devised world. Civ is much much more a game than a simulation. If you want simulation or such, again, play a Paradox Interactive game.

 

[johny smith]

The problem with the world is that it is eurocentric.

How? Europe named all the continents. Just sayin'.

If you want a eurocentric game, play Europa Universalis 3. Civ have never struck me as a 'centric' game of any sorts, as it is just random players picked by the developers to go out in a randomly devised world. Civ is much much more a game than a simulation. If you want simulation or such, again, play a Paradox Interactive game.

This could probably go with out saying....The continents I am pretty sure have totally different name outside of aka "European influence". I mean for example nearly everyone has a different name for Germany in most European languages.

The world is Eurocentric to European related people. What else can I say? Does that mean that is bad? No. It is just the only common logical starting point to make a game from when you are a game maker in America as well.

 

[bernie14]

Basically it go back to photo I had before. Do you think they have black genetic disposition or white disposition? Are they black or white?.

why do u want to define them as black or white?, r u talking gene pools or a social viewpoint because, i think, if u ask that question in soley a social framework, any answer would be racist

The terms of color make no sense it relation to any "one drop rule".

there is perhaps a very, VERY, small percentage of possibly quite ignorant people that may still hold those veiws on race in the US....u r mentioning a philosophy that has not (possibly NEVER) been the popular majority view point in the US....by that argument, I could say that germans are still all a bunch of nazis, because there may still be some white supremacists in germany

I know aka "black" and "white" marriages are not a big deal in Germany now. Turkish would be a bigger issue in Germany than "Black". If you go to Montana black is not as important minority as Native American..

so r u saying that germans r "racist" against turks?

It pointless to debate if your American you grew up with what your social view on race others have different views.

the big problems that i have with your view is that u generalize a great deal.....it seems to me u r doing the same that racists do.....u r putting all americans in a negative light (or at least most) u sound as if u r saying" americans r to narrow-minded to understand this or that"....really?

 

[johny smith]

why do u want to define them as black or white?, r u talking gene pools or a social viewpoint because, i think, if u ask that question in soley a social framework, any answer would be racist
there is perhaps a very, VERY, small percentage of possibly quite ignorant people that may still hold those veiws on race in the US....u r mentioning a philosophy that has not (possibly NEVER) been the popular majority view point in the US....by that argument, I could say that germans are still all a bunch of nazis, because there may still be some white supremacists in germany
so r u saying that germans r "racist" against turks?
the big problems that i have with your view is that u generalize a great deal.....it seems to me u r doing the same that racists do.....u r putting all americans in a negative light (or at least most) u sound as if u r saying" americans r to narrow-minded to understand this or that"....really?

I am not saying anyone is bad. I am say the game is American you have to play from race view of majority of Americans if it applies to the game in particular area. That is not bad. But to say it is not at all Eurocentric is wrong. That is all.

I don't give a damn about what people views are. Someone could tell me the Easter Bunny is evil and I would say ok fine sure if you think so. They are just different views every where in the world. If you never been anywhere else how in the hell would you know?

 

[johny smith]

Put it more like this. Do you see the obvious race differences between a Hutu and Tutsi? Probably not but I am sure people in Congo have features for each as well.

 

[Mr.Civilization]

I agree that Civ is western civilization centric, but then again so is the entire culture of America and Europe. From a historical standpoint, I don't find this bothersome-- it's kind of an it what it is history issue. However, from a game play standpoint I think the game has always been slightly biased to the more modern civilizations, especially in terms of the special military unit strength. It would be nice to see a bit more balance toward ancient civilizations that history left behind in the trail marks of modern powers.

 

[johny smith]

I agree that Civ is western civilization centric, but then again so is the entire culture of America and Europe. From a historical standpoint, I don't find this bothersome-- it's kind of an it what it is history issue. However, from a game play standpoint I think the game has always been slightly biased to the more modern civilizations, especially in terms of the special military unit strength. It would be nice to see a bit more balance toward ancient civilizations that history left behind in the trail marks of modern powers.

I agree, but if wanting to really explore alternate histories... Then they would really need to redo the tech tree, and well the civilizations needed to balance the alternate tech trees. It would require someone outside of the traditional American view point to truly understand what is significant on an good alternate history for what other modern viewpoints you would end with. And again the writers do not possible know everyone's view in the world, but they could get at least some views spread out around the world to form a general basic idea. So enough said not going to happen, but yes it has some bias just because of where it is made.

 

[bernie14]

I am not saying anyone is bad. I am say the game is American you have to play from race view of majority of Americans if it applies to the game in particular area. That is not bad. But to say it is not at all Eurocentric is wrong. That is all.

sorry, i just cant resist, but it sounds to me as if u DO think it is bad, or use any other negative term u want, because U have decided not to play the game based on your judgment

I don't give a damn about what people views are. Someone could tell me the Easter Bunny is evil and I would say ok fine sure if you think so.

well, perhaps u should care about what others think, for several reasons, it is always interesting to me to hear other opinions, (whether u agree or not), also, depending on WHO thinks the easter bunny is evil, it could make your life different or even change the course of civilization as we know it

They are just different views every where in the world. If you never been anywhere else how in the hell would you know?

if u r asking me personally, i have travelled to four continents, live in a part of the US where there is no majority between "whites", "blacks" and "hispanics", there r whites from all anecestries, blacks with distant roots in africa and more recent in the caribean and hispanics from everywhere in cental and south america .....if u ask in general, i think every one of those "groups" has a different cultural viewpoint and each maybe very different, but GOOD for THEM....i dont think there is anything wrong with being proud of your race, culture, ethnic group and/or gene pool.....i happen to think it is 'hard-wired" in our genes, we have a "natural attraction" to similarity, that is why a lion eats a zebra and mates with a lioness.....my question to u would be even IF this game was somewhat "eurocentric", why is that so BAD(to U) again, making it a point that u have decided not to play it?

 

[johny smith]

sorry, i just cant resist, but it sounds to me as if u DO think it is bad, or use any other negative term u want, because U have decided not to play the game based on your judgment
well, perhaps u should care about what others think, for several reasons, it is always interesting to me to hear other opinions, (whether u agree or not), also, depending on WHO thinks the easter bunny is evil, it could make your life different or even change the course of civilization as we know it if u r asking me personally, i have travelled to four continents, live in a part of the US where there is no majority between "whites", "blacks" and "hispanics", there r whites from all anecestries, blacks with distant roots in africa and more recent in the caribean and hispanics from everywhere in cental and south america .....if u ask in general, i think every one of those "groups" has a different cultural viewpoint and each maybe very different, but GOOD for THEM....i dont think there is anything wrong with being proud of your race, culture, ethnic group and/or gene pool.....i happen to think it is 'hard-wired" in our genes, we have a "natural attraction" to similarity, that is why a lion eats a zebra and mates with a lioness.....my question to u would be even IF this game was somewhat "eurocentric", why is that so BAD(to U) again, making it a point that u have decided not to play it?

Eurocentric is not why I am not interested in buying the game. I said originally I am disappointed that nothing has been done to make gameplay more complex. Eye candy added versus new features it looks more and more like a casual gamer environment. Less complexity with better balance and the same old civilizations with 1 unit and 1 building is not what I am looking for. I want to mod where you do not play the same Civilization for 6000 years. For example changing from England to America. I find it really stupid the idea of playing one civilization for 6000 years and the tech tree sucks to me.

But as for physical race I think it is a bunch of BS. Sociological race definitely. If did not say that anyone is bad. How else could I even relate to people in the thread with not showing examples they are familiar with. If you do not agree so be it. I did not want the thread to progress to a total discussion about race only. But since I opened up the comment that race comes from whatever culture viewpoint it progressed to this. I am not trying to stir the coals. It is though a good example of how viewpoints differ around the world.

Eurocentric does not again mean bad or evil. I don't know how many times I said that now. If it would be a different bias if made in China for example. Well I have spoke enough. Let's begin choose your 6000 year living civilization death match now.

 

[craig123]

Johny, you seem to contradict yourself several times. You state that race does not exist because there is variation between people of the same race (e.g. different European groups). You then say that dogs do have races because of breeding. But surely there are variations within each breed of dog? Surely dogs can cross-breed, just as human races can interbreed. The only difference is that dog breeds are more distinct than human races are, due to artificial selection.

Clearly race has some physical basis other than skin colour. For example, anthropologists can determine the race of a body by skeletal differences of different races/ethnicities. To admit this isn't racist. It seems wishful thinking more than science when people claim race doesn't exist. Obviously there are differences within races (i.e. ethnicities) and some groups are not clearly placed into one race or another (just as some dogs do not belong clearly to one breed). This does not prove race doesn't exist; nor is it racist to talk about it.

 

[johny smith]

Johny, you seem to contradict yourself several times. You state that race does not exist because there is variation between people of the same race (e.g. different European groups). You then say that dogs do have races because of breeding. But surely there are variations within each breed of dog? Surely dogs can cross-breed, just as human races can interbreed. The only difference is that dog breeds are more distinct than human races are, due to artificial selection.

Clearly race has some physical basis other than skin colour. For example, anthropologists can determine the race of a body by skeletal differences of different races/ethnicities. To admit this isn't racist. It seems wishful thinking more than science when people claim race doesn't exist. Obviously there are differences within races (i.e. ethnicities) and some groups are not clearly placed into one race or another (just as some dogs do not belong clearly to one breed). This does not prove race doesn't exist; nor is it racist to talk about it.

I am still awake, but this will be last comment in this thread. Everything about ethnicity, skeletal differences, and etc can be shown to determined by the people looking for categories of race to not hold water in relation to genetics. There are definitely genetic clusters. But these categories race do not correspond completely to genetic traits. Every possible type of broad category is based on what the people think they find is different.

Dogs breeds do mix. But as you stated it is due to artificial selection they exist. A long long long long long long time ago yes there was at one point human physical races because of isolated groups. If you took dog breeds today and let them loose to choose whatever mate they want you would have the same case as in humans. A few traits here and there but not enough sure to define the dog as a certain breed. Then you would start all over trying to figure out what dogs look significantly different.

Morphology has no genetic code in most cases. Meaning measuring of human features. The same person can develop similar features based on diet. Diet is bigger factor in determining certain shapes. There are many factors of society that add to it. For example if you where tight pants you entire life you can actually shape your body different. There were all sorts of bad studies done in the hope of finally finding a distinction but it has never came through as being true.

Again there is clear genetic groups but they do not match the social races. These groups are not distinct you constantly have changes going on in the gene pool. The example of the color of the children I mean as an example of how easy it happens. So in the context of say African American medicine you can determine that based on certain social factors like diet there are more things likely to happen.

Half of the crap you hear like on CSI is just that total crap. I remember hearing they found features of body to show that the body was American. But I do understand the culture impacts on minorities to tell people there really is no physical race with them not understanding there are social races. There are definitely perceived social notions of race that would be ignored and would lead to more social injustice of minorities if not taking to be understood to be real that have an impact on people. So yes race exists short and simple but it is society that determines the race not DNA.

I hope I do not sound like racist ass. That is not what I am here for. So I will stay out of here for now on. If you disagree great have a long discussion. I need not get involved before this thread gets out of hand because just like telling people in Congo that there is no real difference between Hutu and Tutsi you will get the same response here.

 

[Svip]

This could probably go with out saying....The continents I am pretty sure have totally different name outside of aka "European influence".

And yet, they use our names these days! How weird!

I mean for example nearly everyone has a different name for Germany in most European languages.

Germany have been named by different peoples after its vast amount of tribes. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_Germany

The world is Eurocentric to European related people. What else can I say? Does that mean that is bad? No. It is just the only common logical starting point to make a game from when you are a game maker in America as well.

Do people in South East Asia and Africa consider the two world wars, world wars? If so, they would accept that for a war to be a world war, it can pretty much take place in Europe. My point is, even to non-European people, the world is very eurocentric. And that's why they are pissed.

 

[craig123]

Johny, I must disagree. You say that long ago humans were different races, but that is no longer the case because groups are no longer isolated (and hence interbreeding between populations). That's nonsense. Races still exist, the only difference today is that - due to migration, etc. - there are mixed race people and some ethnic groups that are not easily identified with a particular race. Like I said, cross-bred dogs do not disprove different breeds of dogs.

And it is also a fact that certain populations are more susceptable/resistant to some diseases due to the alleles prevalent within that population. It is not a case of diet. Some populations, for example, have a genetic resistance to malaria, due to their ancestors having evolved in tropical climates.