[GS] Is chopping overflow overcorrected?

[Wandering_Dandelion]

Here are the details:

1. Consider a production 5/65 for an archer, and assume that chopping gives us 50 production.
2. Without Agoge policy card (+50% production towards archers), chopping changes the city production of this archer to 55/65. This is obvious.
3. Now if Agoge card is applied, chopping will complete the archer for sure but ZERO additional production for the next unit/building/district in GS. We think this is a bug.
4. Notice that in the previous RF expansion, this chopping process will give 50*(1+50%)-(65-5)=15 production for the next one. When Ed said they fixed the chopping overflow in GS, we thought it works as follows: 40 out of 50 chopping applies on the archer production. Those 40*(1+50%) (Agoge card) finish the current archer and the remaining 10 out of 50 production would be saved for the next. However, it is not 15 (RF), not even 10 (reasonable value) but 0.

In general, we define x as the remaining production (in the above example x=65-5=60), y as the chopping production (50 in this case) and a as the production amplified factor (50% towards archers in this case). We found that:
i. if y>x, chopping will complete the current production and y-x remaining. (which is also wierd, it should be y-x/(1+a) )
ii. if (1+a)*y>x>y (the above example), chopping will complete the current production and ZERO remaining.
iii. if x>(1+a)*y, chopping works normally that all (1+a)*y will apply on the current production and x-(1+a)*y more production is needed to finish it.

That means that when we finish a project, the last part of this project before we finished will not be effect by any policy or UA. Due to this bug, even when you train same units in a city by chopping, the production that the trees provide are not the same. I think the overflow in GS is just as fantastic as it in RF, and the most scientific formula is that in CIV4.

Though chopping is OP, I think the best way to solve it is reducing the profit of the chopping, not making a new problem.

 

[Victoria]

@Boyan_Sun I started doing tests and come across something I do not understand, if you would explain it that would be good.

chopping will complete the archer for sure but ZERO additional production for the next unit/building/district in GS. We think this is a bug.

Wandering Dandilion, chopping in the same turn gives it to the next but it does look like no chop is carried between turns which is what Ed sort of said in a livestream.

My current chop power is 25, A warrior costs 40 and a Monument costs 60. I slot the Agoge card

I have 0 production, choose a warrior and do a chop for 25 x 1.5 = 37.5 ... no enough to finish the warrior

I now do another chop of 37.5 which finishes the warrior and choose a monument

I now do a 25 chop for the monument and it shows I now have 47 toward the monument

... so two chops at 37.5 = 75 minus a warrior (40) = 35 left over ...
I chop for 25 ... 25 + 35 does not = 47
If I take the 50% off the 35 left over I get 23.3'
23+25 = 48

is that a rounding error somewhere? A .sav with no mods attached.

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

This is a little inaccurate, you are not really losing 20 prod, you are not making 100% each turn

20 prod city first turn is 40 so full100% used
Turn 2 is 80 so full 100% used
Turn 3 the boat finishes without needing the overflow and the overflow is not moved to the next unit. This was how Ed said it would work. The 100% card is designed to speed up what you are building now, not the next thing. The workers cut down too much lumber and some left over has been stolen rather than used on the campus.

Actually not 20 but 10. The city ought to use 10(*2=20) to finish the boat, and the other 10 should be saved to train another boat, and that is how overflow in CIV4 works. It's really strange that the overflow is the same no matter whether I use the policy card at the last turn.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

That's actually a pretty weird way to do it. It would be much simpler to change the cost of items as long as a policy card is slotted. Then you wouldn't have to fiddle around with adjustments to your production.

That boat sailed a long time ago, but yes, if the core engine had been set up this way, we would never have had overflow issues in the first place.

Sometimes the difference between basic decisions, though, aren't obvious until later in the game's development.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

This is a little inaccurate, you are not really losing 20 prod, you are not making 100% each turn

20 prod city first turn is 40 so full100% used
Turn 2 is 80 so full 100% used
Turn 3 the boat finishes without needing the overflow and the overflow is not moved to the next unit. This was how Ed said it would work. The 100% card is designed to speed up what you are building now, not the next thing. The workers cut down too much lumber and some left over has been stolen rather than used on the campus.

That seems correct, but an experienced player will not let the last 20 goes away. He will move his pops to other less prod tiles, making city prod reduce to 10, meanwhile increase other yield like food/science/culture. After this turn he will adjust pop back to 20. During this operations, he gains more than those who doesn't adjust pop. I mean, it will make the gap bigger between casual players and exp players.

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

@Boyan_Sun I started doing tests and come across something I do not understand, if you would explain it that would be good.
Wandering Dandilion, chopping in the same turn gives it to the next but it does look like no chop is carried between turns which is what Ed sort of said in a livestream.

My current chop power is 25, A warrior costs 40 and a Monument costs 60. I slot the Agoge card

I have 0 production, choose a warrior and do a chop for 25 x 1.5 = 37.5 ... no enough to finish the warrior
View attachment 517841
I now do another chop of 37.5 which finishes the warrior and choose a monument
View attachment 517842
I now do a 25 chop for the monument and it shows I now have 47 toward the monument
View attachment 517843

... so two chops at 37.5 = 75 minus a warrior (40) = 35 left over ...
I chop for 25 ... 25 + 35 does not = 47
If I take the 50% off the 35 left over I get 23.3'
23+25 = 48

is that a rounding error somewhere? A .sav with no mods attached.

Actually the first chopping is not 37.5.
∵ 25(the production you get)>3(the production you left)
∴ overflow=25-3, instead of (25*1.5-3)/1.5
So, the production to build the monument is 25-3+25=47, just like what I just posted.I'll soon give you an example.

 

[UWHabs]

@Boyan_Sun I started doing tests and come across something I do not understand, if you would explain it that would be good.
Wandering Dandilion, chopping in the same turn gives it to the next but it does look like no chop is carried between turns which is what Ed sort of said in a livestream.

My current chop power is 25, A warrior costs 40 and a Monument costs 60. I slot the Agoge card

I have 0 production, choose a warrior and do a chop for 25 x 1.5 = 37.5 ... no enough to finish the warrior
View attachment 517841
I now do another chop of 37.5 which finishes the warrior and choose a monument
View attachment 517842
I now do a 25 chop for the monument and it shows I now have 47 toward the monument
View attachment 517843

... so two chops at 37.5 = 75 minus a warrior (40) = 35 left over ...
I chop for 25 ... 25 + 35 does not = 47
If I take the 50% off the 35 left over I get 23.3'
23+25 = 48

is that a rounding error somewhere? A .sav with no mods attached.

That would have been the math on the old system. What happens now seems to be:
chop1: 37.5 (correct)
chop2: only needs 2.5 to finish, so that 2.5 gets applied to the warrior, and the remaining 22.5 is added to overflow
chop3: add another 25 to overflow, final is 47.5

So yeah, this is kind of unfortunate, and can lead to waste on the last turn of building using any policy card. I don't know why they don't use the formula listed at the bottom of the first post, since that's the most "accurate".

The next question, does overflow have policy cards applied to it? So in the warrior example, after the 2nd chop, you have 22.5 carryover. If you slot another warrior next, will he end up with 22 or 33 production in him after that turn?

 

[Victoria]

thanks @UWHabs I just got there myself but glad others are following.
...
Yeah this is all a bit wierd.

 

[Victoria]

The next question, does overflow have policy cards applied to it? So in the warrior example, after the 2nd chop, you have 22.5 carryover. If you slot another warrior next, will he end up with 22 or 33 production in him after that turn?

22.5 according to @Wandering_Dandelion I'll see if I can squeeze another chop in

 

[Victoria]

@UWHabs a bit ugly but

slotting second warrior

slotting 3rd warrior

... so the third warrior indicates 4 turns of 7.3 production to complete indicating 22.5 rather than 33

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

@Victoria

Spoiler Precondition :

Chopping is 54. Have Agoge policy card. No overflow in the city.

Spoiler First Chopping :

Saka get 81=54*1.5, that's right.

Spoiler Second Chopping :

The overflow is no less than 140-21*5=35. Because the settler can be trained in 21 turns.
The overflow is less than 140-8*13=36. Because the settler can't be trained in 13 turns.
So it's obviously that the overflow is 35.
Just like what I posted above. 54(chopping get) > 19(the rest of Saka), so the over flow is just 54-19=35. That's mean that the rest 19 productions of Saka are not be effected by Agoge.

Spoiler Third Chopping :

You can see there is no overflow after I chopped the third tree.
That because 54*1.5>100-35>54. So the overflow will be empty to 0, just like what I posted above.

As you can see, I chopping for Saka in the same city and the same turn for three times, but the production they provided are different. Theoretically, all these these trees should provide 54*1.5=81 production for that I only trained Saka in this city. In fact, the first one provided 81, the second one provided 54, and the third one provided 65.

 

[Victoria]

In fact, the first one provided 81, the second one provided 54, and the third one provided 65.

I guess all trees are not equal.. many thanks for the clarity!

There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'oppression!'
And the oaks, just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet,
Axe,
And saw

 

[Wandering_Dandelion]

I guess all trees are not equal..

I'll feedback to ED soon that trees in his game are not equal. Hope he will hire some gardeners.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

All trees are equal.

Some trees are more equal than others.

Don't chop me - that redwood over there is WAY more equal than I am!

(I'll see myself out.)

 

[shaglio]

All trees are equal.

Some trees are more equal than others.

Don't chop me - that redwood over there is WAY more equal than I am!

(I'll see myself out.)

. . . and the trees were all kept equal by hatchet, ax, and saw.

 

[pbl987]

I think there is a little mistake.
At least it was baffling me:

The overflow is less than 140-8*13=36. Because the settler can't be trained in 14 13 turns.

 

[Serude]

So is it still better to chop with Magnus or just build a saw mill these days? I get if you want it fast you'll chop but I'm just speaking as a general. Let's say in a 250 turn game.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

So is it still better to chop with Magnus or just build a saw mill these days? I get if you want it fast you'll chop but I'm just speaking as a general. Let's say in a 250 turn game.

Build army and pillage.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

So is it still better to chop with Magnus or just build a saw mill these days? I get if you want it fast you'll chop but I'm just speaking as a general. Let's say in a 250 turn game.

Unfortunately, Magnus chop remains much better than saw mill - his 1.5x is NOT speed up scalar, but is directly added to base, so it won't waste. With Magnus someone has still won SV in ~170 turn, or won CV in ~130 turns, even peacefully. And more, Magnus -80% strategy resource is toooo...o powerful in a conquest game. I've already seen a ~90 turn Conquest Victory video (Ottoman) with harvest + pillage: https://www.bilibili.com/video/av43660639

 

[Ansive]

So, let me rewrite to see if I understood correctly the new overflow mechanic:

You have 3 variables
- the production needed to complete the project (X)
- the chop production (Y)
- the chop production modifier (A)

For a chop of 100 production and a modifier of 100% you have:
- 100 base production
- 100 bonus production

When you chop into something you first use the base production, and only after, if the project is not finished you switch to using the bonus production.

We get 3 main chop situations when building something:
1. If you need more than 200, base + bonus (200) is not enough to finish the project, you get the full amount (policy had full effect)
2. If you need between 100 and 200, base + bonus (200) is enough to finish the project, and you get 0 overflow (policy had 0% to 100% efficiency)
3. If you need less than 100, base alone (100) is enough to finish the project, you get 0 bonus and some overflow, as if the policy didn't exist

Note: In case 3 the overflow can be modified by policies.


So what is my review of this system?
Pretty much overnerfed, and still exploitable (because of point 3 note).


Example:
300 production project with 100 chop and 100% policy:
chop at 0 -> get 200 -> progress 200/300
chop at 50 -> get 200 -> progress 250/300
chop at 100 -> get 200 -> finish 300/300 + 0 overflow
chop at 150 -> get 150 -> finish 300/300 + 0 overflow
chop at 200 -> get 100 -> finish 300/300 + 0 overflow
chop at 250 -> get 100 -> finish 300/300 + 50 modifiable overflow
chop at 299 -> get 100 -> finish 300/300 + 99 modifiable overflow

In this example there are 2 optimal places to chop
- between 0 and 100
- as close as possible to 300

With cheap projects and high chop amounts the first 'optimal' situation disappears.
Thus, we return to the dreaded, build to 1 turn, then chop situation. But with a twist.

The main difference in this 1 turn to complete chop exploit
- vanilla, base project modifier determines overflow
- GS, next project modifier is used BY THE overflow

Can you still chop boats and walls into wonders? NO! That part is fixed.
You are now better off just chopping directly into the wonder with slotted wonder production modifiers (which were previously useless for overflow).

Can you still chop a nice quick navy before getting a new ship promotion?
Maybe... the policy will have varying stages of usefulness, from 0 to 100%. All depending on the size of the chop and the production needed to finish the boat.
- you will get a random number of production overflow, depending on the rules at 3.
- you will have to micromanage to either not finish boats by chop, or only chop nearly finished boats (MAJOR BOO)


Was it so hard to just 'debuff' the overflow with the same policy in order to get BASE modifiable production? SIGH
There would be nothing to micromanage and nothing to exploit... rant over