Is Civ2 Strategy Dead ?

[Peaster]

5-10 years ago, players at Apolyton and CFC were intensely interested in the best Civ2 strategies. This led to comparison games, thoughtful arguments, and written guides to Early Landing, Early Conquest, OCC, ICS and Power Democracy.

Strategy forums like this one have not pushed Civ2 strategy forwards much since approx 2005. Nowadays, they contain mostly newbie questions and game mechanics, and it is rare to see two experienced players arguing strategy. This still occurs sporadically in the GOTM forums, and maybe in succession games, but IIRC it hasn't led to any new guides or major new strategies. Also, we often confuse each other [eg Player A is thinking about landing games, but B is thinking about conquest, and C is a newbie who just wants to chat, etc]. We could do better.

So, am I asking too much ? After all, it's 2010 and Civ5 is coming out soon.

IMO there are just a few types of Civ2 games, and if enough people are interested, we could focus on one at a time:

1) Early Landing
2) Early Conquest (maybe?)
3) OCC (no?)
4) Multi-player (no?)
5) Trade

I left out High Score [no strategy required?] and Scenarios [every one is different] and Fast Growth [DaveV's guide to ICS is still valid]. We might rule out 4), since the multi-player community has apparently withered, and they never seemed very interested in writing down their strategies anyway. I am doubtful about 3), unless someone [not me] can lead us beyond what's already in Paul's guide to OCC. I could lead on 2), but most of what I know is already in my EC guide, or in my GOTM posts. There are still a few unanswered questions about EC, though. Did I leave out anything ?

I included 5) Trade, even though it is not a type of game in itself, because we've discussed it recently in other threads. And there seems to be little agreement, even on basic questions. It is a huge part of Civ2, yet we have no comprehensive guide to it. So, IMO a systematic study of Trade would be worthwhile.

That leaves 1). The Early Landing Guide, by solo, is still valuable, for game mechanics, etc. But other strategies, based on ICS for example, may be better. So, I think a study of this could also be worthwhile. We may play a comparison game (GOTM) on this soon.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I usually have a ToT game going in another window, and I confess I hardly ever bother with trade caravans. There's a whole lot about this aspect of the game I am likely missing, since I research Trade and build the Embassy because it lets me know what tech the other civs have and I can then get the ones I haven't managed to research for myself up to that point. I might do caravans for the purpose of helping to build a Wonder, but trading for itself... rarely.

I would be interested if people could help me understand this better, particularly as it applies to Test of Time.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Trade is (for me) the hardest part when playing civ2. I try to bring a demanded van to the most far away ai city (within my reach). So developing a good trade strategy guide is something I certainly would like to see. If there is enough real life time left I'll try to help making it.

Another part where there isn't a good (strategy) guide of is the hapiness factor (how many cities before rioting). There is one for Deity but not for the lower levels. Almost a year ago I started a thread about it but due to lack of time I still haven't finished testing. Perhaps others can help with that issue too.

 

[Peaster]

Trade is (for me) the hardest part when playing civ2.

I think we'd all agree! It was the last major feature of Civ2 for me to get comfortable with. Samson and solo worked out most of the game mechanics [see ELG] but I don't know of any great thread/guide about strategy. When I decided to learn about trade, a few years ago, I asked basic questions here, and got strange contradictory answers. So, I had to work it out myself, with some major help from PBEM allies and some sample games at Poly. It seems that even in 2010, everyone has their own system, with little agreement on any basic principles.

These debates sometimes must be settled by comparison games. One problem for us is how to measure success. It could be an early landing game, or a race to 30,000g, or to 255FT, or to 3000 Civ2 points. I'd suggest some discussion, to clarify where we agree / disagree, followed by an EL game.

Another part where there isn't a good (strategy) guide of is the hapiness factor (how many cities before rioting). There is one for Deity but not for the lower levels. Almost a year ago I started a thread about it but due to lack of time I still haven't finished testing. Perhaps others can help with that issue too.

IIRC someone has worked out the game mechanics of happiness, at all levels AFAIK. Have you tried the GL at Poly? Again, strategy is a different matter. IMO it is more important, but generally neglected in these forums. For example, when to build Mike's ? or JSB ? or raise lux ? etc

Slightly related = Gov'ts. The game mechanics are known. There have been many threads on govts, such as "what's your favorite govt" and Starlifter's guide to Democracy, etc. But I don't know of any unified guide to strategy - eg, when/how should you switch from monarchy to republic ?

@Valka: I'm afraid I don't have ToT, and don't know much about it, whether good strategy in one game transfers to the other. Assuming it does, you could participate in discussions, and Q+A, if not our comparison games. Or, maybe there are enough ToTers here for a ToT comparison ??

Edit: Just realized that an EL comparison game will measure other factors, too, such as ICS vs ELG strategies. So, it might not totally resolve all basic trade questions. IMO we must accept that for now. Maybe in 10 more years, we will agree on ICS vs ELG, etc, and can play a more conclusive comp game.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I did look at the GL at Poly. IIRC it was Slowthinker who wrote a few posts about this topic but only for Deity and not the lower levels.

 

[Peaster]

You are right - I couldn't find much about happiness in the GL, except for ST's game mechanics work for Diety. Were you mainly interested in extending his work to other levels ? Or, in finding the best ways to manage happiness ... eg best strategy ?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I think both. I notice that many players ask on the fora how much cities can be build before they riot. So when making that part we of course should go on and describe which things have influence on the hapiness and how. It might take a lot of testing. I have a small list at King level (small map) under depotism....but didn't finish it yet....But perhaps with others we can do it a lot easier.

 

[CharlieChuck]

IIRC someone has worked out the game mechanics of happiness, at all levels AFAIK. Have you tried the GL at Poly? Again, strategy is a different matter. IMO it is more important, but generally neglected in these forums. For example, when to build Mike's ? or JSB ? or raise lux ? etc

Slightly related = Gov'ts. The game mechanics are known. There have been many threads on govts, such as "what's your favorite govt" and Starlifter's guide to Democracy, etc. But I don't know of any unified guide to strategy - eg, when/how should you switch from monarchy to republic ?

The timing of changes from Monarchy -> Repulic -> Demo is I think very important and under-researched. though it must depend of the particular game, they're must be a good time to change (especially repub-Demo) without being wasteful. I usually change after magnetism (assuming you have leos) but this is mostly to avoid problems from triremes/caravelsm, and is probably too late.

As for experimenting and research in general. It's easy to think everythings already been done, and I suppose that's what we've been doing. Time (or speed) of launch is about the only thing I can think of left to look hard into. I mean speed in terms of the order to research techs/when to change govts/when to build wonders. It's a lomg process so there must be something we've missed.

 

[Peaster]

@MG: OK. Personally, I am more interested in the strategy side, and could probably help more with that than mechanics. If you'll lead us thru some happiness testing, I'd be willing to spend a few hours on that, at least. Though I'm not sure I'm up for a complete SlowThinker-style analysis. Regarding happiness strategy, let's see if we can identify the main questions we'd like to answer:

1) How to avoid / manage rioting in the very early game ? For example, we'd consider the costs and benefits of militia, rushing to Monarchy [or not], Elvises, etc.

2) Similar question for the rest of the game. We might have to consider different cases, such as Monarchy games vs Republic games vs others, ICS vs lean, EC vs EL, etc.

3) Managing celebrations. What are the cheapest ways to achieve it ? When is it worthwhile to celebrate [and in which cities, and for how long ?] Again, this may have to be split into cases based on govt, goals, etc.

4) Does happiness have any other side effects ? such as a more agreeable Senate, power rating etc ? These are game mechanics questions, I guess, but they could affect strategy.

Warning: I almost always try to reduce difficult strategy questions to formulas based on gold [like 1 shield = 2 gold]. Apparently, some people just hate that ... so, do we need to talk ... ? I believe most of these questions probably have reasonably simple answers, which we can probably reason out without much testing, but we may have to do some of that too. People probably won't believe our conclusions without the testing.

@CC: I agree on the need for a basic guide to govts, including advice on when to switch. Probably even more than Happiness, this study will have to be split into cases, based on goals and styles. I might be able to handle EC games myself, or at least get us started. AFAIK there are two popular styles for EL, namely ICS [which I favor] and the leaner ELG style. I am not sure if we should try to handle both together, or separately, or try to decide which one is best, and ignore the other. I suspect there is already some govt advice in the ELG, but I haven't checked. I think we could omit other games [OCC, Blue Star, Multiplayer, etc] for now. What do you think ?

 

[BaconLad]

The strategy guides available have made my scores improve exponentially, at a cost... I don't enjoy playing the game as much and I rarely finish games now. I seem to either get way ahead, get bored and start over... or realise I should of done things differently/better, get annoyed with myself and start over...

The best strategy is no strategy, play for fun...

 

[CharlieChuck]

@CC: I agree on the need for a basic guide to govts, including advice on when to switch. Probably even more than Happiness, this study will have to be split into cases, based on goals and styles. I might be able to handle EC games myself, or at least get us started. AFAIK there are two popular styles for EL, namely ICS [which I favor] and the leaner ELG style. I am not sure if we should try to handle both together, or separately, or try to decide which one is best, and ignore the other. I suspect there is already some govt advice in the ELG, but I haven't checked. I think we could omit other games [OCC, Blue Star, Multiplayer, etc] for now. What do you think ?

I think govts is more relevant to EL, but still handy for EC too. Looking at when to change as part of a GOTM would be preferable timewise for me. Maybe look at a few old games first, ones that have landed earlier by a fair margin, but with only 2 saves it won't give much a away.

 

[Peaster]

OK. Seems most of the people still playing Civ 2 aren't interested in best strategy - perhaps they silently agree with baconlad. A few GOTM players are interested, but don't have much RL time. So, it seems not much is likely to happen, unless we agree on a topic, and a pretty easy method. Main options so far are happiness, trade, govts and EL. Possible next steps:

* play an EL comparison GOTM, with each player taking a few extra notes on their growth / trade / etc habits. Then somebody writes a summary of the ideas and results. Maybe we could tack that onto the end of the ELG thread. I think we have approx 4 players somewhat interested in this, so it could work.

* 2-3 of us could list some of the rough guiding principles we use when playing GOTMs, especially ones related to happiness, trade, govts or EL. We might also gather ideas from old threads. Then, we can just combine them, and stop. Or, if people get more interested at that point, we could debate the ideas, or vote, or hold comparison games, etc.

* Maybe MG or CC or somebody else wants to step up and organize some project. I'd probably join in. I'm not taking much of a lead at present because it isn't clear whether anyone else has the time and interest. Actually, I may also be short on time within a few weeks.

Thoughts ?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I think at this point somebody else should organize some project. Beiing moderator, organizing GOTM's and my RL makes things pretty busy. I also have an holiday coming up in a couple of weeks...so before that holiday I won't have the time to start things up. After that I could but I prefer somebody else would do it.

 

[Peaster]

I could get one of these started over the next 1-2 weeks, but don't want to take on a major project alone, just disturbing the baconboys. Also, I will be somewhat busy approx May 1 - July 15. So, I'm trying to see if anyone else wants to commit to one of these before I put much work in. In the EL case, I don't think you'd have to do much, except start and play the GOTM. The notes/etc should be easy. I might have to decide on the format for the comparison, and then ask for cooperation from 3-4 players.

Also, the other idea [listing your GOTM principles] could be very quick and easy, if we don't insist on a perfect guide to each topic. It might be helpful to the average player, just to know that 2-3 strong players agree about something ... like when to build HG, or whatever.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Sounds good. Let's wait first if somebody else wants to help us....

 

[ColdWizard]

We might rule out 4), since the multi-player community has apparently withered, and they never seemed very interested in writing down their strategies anyway.

AFAIK, they have moved on. I never saw much of an MP community here beyond PBEM, at least when I was active. I learned quite a lot from players and posts from the MP forum at Apolyton. However, as I recall, it was mostly discussion/argument stemming from recent games. With Apolyton's forum compression, I imagine even those threads would be difficult to find now, let alone distill strategy out of.

I recall that learning MP strategy made SP much easier, even on Deity level, but nothing more than that. I also know that I had saved various sources of strategy info, but doubt they have managed all of the computer transitions of the past 8 to 10 years. I believe strategy varied somewhat based on the settings of double movement/double production settings.

 

[Peaster]

AFAIK, they have moved on. I never saw much of an MP community here beyond PBEM, at least when I was active. I learned quite a lot from players and posts from the MP forum at Apolyton. However, as I recall, it was mostly discussion/argument stemming from recent games. With Apolyton's forum compression, I imagine even those threads would be difficult to find now, let alone distill strategy out of.

I recall that learning MP strategy made SP much easier, even on Deity level, but nothing more than that. I also know that I had saved various sources of strategy info, but doubt they have managed all of the computer transitions of the past 8 to 10 years. I believe strategy varied somewhat based on the settings of double movement/double production settings.

Yeah, that's about what I thought. I imagine that MP strategy was complex and interesting and worthy of a written guide. But I guess there is no point in doing it now, and I don't know who'd do it, anyway. Just for the record, there is a MP guide by Eyes of Night in the CFC War Academy. IIRC it is not bad, just way too short. Also, when prepping for my first PBEMs, I refered to a Civ3 MP guide [but I forget the title], outlining a few overall game plans.

 

[CharlieChuck]

I could get one of these started over the next 1-2 weeks, but don't want to take on a major project alone, just disturbing the baconboys. Also, I will be somewhat busy approx May 1 - July 15. So, I'm trying to see if anyone else wants to commit to one of these before I put much work in. In the EL case, I don't think you'd have to do much, except start and play the GOTM. The notes/etc should be easy. I might have to decide on the format for the comparison, and then ask for cooperation from 3-4 players.

Also, the other idea [listing your GOTM principles] could be very quick and easy, if we don't insist on a perfect guide to each topic. It might be helpful to the average player, just to know that 2-3 strong players agree about something ... like when to build HG, or whatever.

I've not got a huge amount of time in the summer. But I could do a landing game as a GOTM if given a longer deadline (2 months?).

 

[Peaster]

I've not got a huge amount of time in the summer. But I could do a landing game as a GOTM if given a longer deadline (2 months?).

OK. I think Magic has agreed to that in another thread, and we have approx 4 strong players ready. We might even do it in GOTM 110. We might not revive Civ2 Strategy with one game, but if we can even partially settle "ELG vs ICS", that would be something.

 

[IdiotsOpposite]

What about the good old 255CC? Always fun, that.