Is declaration of friendship necessary for peaceful game?

[Camillo]

Is it necessary to have friends actually?

Last time I had the following situation:
- I play on Emperor, Marathon with Poland and 22 Civs on Standard Terra Map, time+domination victory
- after several turns since game start some civs were asking me for friendship and I refused (let's say it was to early to clearly know their intensions)
- then Germany and France declared war on Persia
- I denounced Germany and France (let's say I hate aggressors)
- and then in several turns about 10 other civs denounced me and NO ONE would like to make friends with me anymore (even Persia), 4 of them declared war on me, and even always peaceful India didn't want to make friends

Please explain few things:
1. How denounciation actually works? Does it have diplo penalty for itself?
2. Is it necessary to have friends through the game or being neutral is also good?
3. If someone denounce you does it always mean that they'll like to attack you shortly? Should I expect many declaraions of war shortly?
4. What can I do if half of the civs denounced me and no one want to be friends? Any way to turn it back?

 

[Heretiv]

Denouncing is a precursor to attacking and is an aggressive act in a way/

Having a decemnt size army yourself is the best way to ensure you are not attacked - even if you don't use it.

Friends are good, I think being entirely neutral may leave you isolated.

Press on I guess if everyone denounced you, keep your military large and dont attack people going forwards. Eventually they will start being a little nicer to you.

 

[fuzzatron717]

You want friends if denounce others then you have supporters that help and denounce them. DO NOT DENOUCE unless a number of civs denounce the aggressors as well plus since Germany and France worked together it might be harder. And if Persia was being a **** to everyone earlier like hated by everyone don't interfere with France and Germany let be maybe support them.

If you don't want this trouble again do not denounce unless you are in the right circumstances. Wait only denounce if A. you have friends who hate the same person. B. Check statuses of the diplomatic relations of the that civ to do this go into the diplomacy overview into global relations or whatever it is called its the interface on the right. And see the how other civs like/dislike the civs you are going to denounce.

 

[Derpy Hooves]

1: Denouncements have a negative effect on yourself yes, although somewhat larger on your target, it mainly forces the AI to consider who it's closer to, if you're in DoF's your allies will likely follow your example, the trick is getting them chain denounced like that, that cumulative diplo penalty can be a pretty big hit for any civ. Or denouncing people that have already been denounced by people you want to get close to so you get the "Denounced same leaders" bonus.
2: Usually it's better to get into DoF's, unless he's right next door, don't get into DoF's with warmongers, their soiled reputation will drag you down, while being in the peaceful block (usually led by Venice or such) will help you peddle your wares and at times even get support in wars.
3: The AI will denouce if your relationships sours enough, be it via contested borders, warmonger hate, wonder envy or as you said, because they want to attack you.
4: Liberate conquered civ's, give away free lux, try to get a friendship with someone in the block, his friends will get bonusses towards you too, denounce the same people, anything that would normally make them like you more works here too.

 

[Blitz Spearman]

Don't be friends with anyone. Everyone civ leader is a dirty backstabber. If you don't have friends, no one can backstab you. Keep neutral; no enemies, no friends, a well-prepared army for defense. This way no one will bother you.

 

[Camillo]

OK, but what about being neutral (no declaration of friendship) PLUS denouncing some aggressive civs? It should earn you diplo score with peaceful civs. At least logically... May it work?

 

[EK834]

OK, but what about being neutral (no declaration of friendship) PLUS denouncing some aggressive civs? It should earn you diplo score with peaceful civs. At least logically... May it work?

It doesn't, not really. The AI can't read your thoughts and decipher that you did this because you also hate warmongers. Persia's friends all disliked you for soiling its reputation, and the friends of Persia's friends then followed too, and you just made yourself the game's big black sheep. The civs that dislike warmongers are programmed to react to actual warmongering with negative diplo hits, not to give bonuses to AI or player that do not warmonger.

As it's already been explained above, it's risky to be the first one to denounce a Civ, unless you have a few friends you are pretty sure like you better than the Civ you denounce, and the Civ you denounce has few friends, none when possible.

If you see for eg. Russia denounce Persia, and the Ottomans follow and no one seem to denounce Russia or the Ottomans, it's pretty safe to join and denounce Persia in turn.

Don't do it for "role playing" reasons like not liking warmongers, though (unless you're role playing the whole game and not playing strategically). The AI won't understand any of that. Do it because you see a strategic advantage to denouncing Persia, eg: spark a chain of denouncements and isolate it, perhaps even as a prelude to attacking it.

Trying to remain too "neutral", unless you're strong and have become largely self-sufficient, can rapidly get dangerous as it isolates you while friendships are built all around you (and if you mean to try to be neutral, don't go denounce anyone!).

 

[Memoryjar]

For AI, not for human. Denonces only civs who conquer city (warmonger penality) or if multi-spies caugth in your cities.

Example with my current game :
- Emperor, standard, continents.
- My neighboor is Isabella. Make friend with her. She declarer War, 5 turns later.
- Made peace, accept ambassade, DoF a few turns later. Again, declaration of war just 5 or 5 turn later.

AI is AI. Show it your weakness and it always declare war. It's a little surprise to be rush by Brazil, Sweden. It only miss me an early war open by Gandhi.

 

[Camillo]

OK, OK, so I made a stupid mistake (still new in this game and overestimated AI "intelligence"). The question is - should I restart the game or is there a fair chance of building up my reputaion and make friends in the future? I play marathon so it's damn 90 turns till denounciation ends. For now half of the civs denounced me, two of them declared war and no one wants to make friends even if I have all green events with them. Is it possible to bring back friendship (if I'll behave correctly since now and of course won't get crushed by those who declared war on me) or I did start some kind of chain reaction and there is no way out?

 

[Aenthin]

OK, OK, so I made a stupid mistake (still new in this game and overestimated AI "intelligence"). The question is - should I restart the game or is there a fair chance of building up my reputaion and make friends in the future? I play marathon so it's damn 90 turns till denounciation ends. For now half of the civs denounced me, two of them declared war and no one wants to make friends even if I have all green events with them. Is it possible to bring back friendship (if I'll behave correctly since now and of course won't get crushed by those who declared war on me) or I did start some kind of chain reaction and there is no way out?

You could bribe a civ into attacking a city state, or another civ, then later declare war and liberate that city state/civ they just conquered. Usually, one liberation is enough to clean your warmongering penalties. That should ease up your diplomatic statuses. Marathon is a long playing time, but the battles are still the same regardless of game speed. Basically, you still have lots of time to repair your reputation.

 

[amphreded]

There's many benefits to having friends, I don't see a reason why you should be neutral for the rest of the game.
DoF means you can trade for lump sum of gold instead gold per turn, allowing you to rush buy things and get crucial buildings or well-timed units out.
DoF means you can do research agreement, which coupled with scientific revolution and Porcelain Tower is a big advantage.
DoF allows you to maintain good relations with your friend's friends, which potentially unlock you being able to DoF with another Civ for the above benefits.
DoF gets better trade deal comparing to a Civ that's neutral with you.

Of course DoF has negative impacts such as ruining your relationships with another civ that's currently in conflict with your friend, and such. Just pick your DoF wisely, try to balance out pros and cons.
For keeping up good relations, I do:
- give your vote to the world congress leader if you know you can't win. that'll earn you point
- help another civ securing their world congress proposals (make sure the resolution won't have detrimental effect on your civ, and you're good)
- if you don't have any solid choice to pick when it's your turn to propose, pick one that pleases other civs. For example, repeal against a luxury ban, scholars in residence (I do this sometimes even I'm in the tech lead, just to keep friendships so I can sign more research agreements), historical monument (providing you can benefit from its resolution as well), etc.
- when a civ asks for your help for gold or resources, if it's not too overbearing, let them have it.
- denounce a civ that's hated by many other civs (depending on situation)

Sometimes I bait myself having a small army, and if a neighboring civ attacks me and I can defend effectively, I kill their units but without capturing any of their cities. A few turns after they would come for peace negotiation. If you accept this peace negotiation where they were the original aggressor and you didn't take any of their cities, they'll turn friendly - sometimes you can even declare friendship with them the turn you accept peace.

 

[EK834]

OK, OK, so I made a stupid mistake (still new in this game and overestimated AI "intelligence"). The question is - should I restart the game or is there a fair chance of building up my reputaion and make friends in the future? I play marathon so it's damn 90 turns till denounciation ends. For now half of the civs denounced me, two of them declared war and no one wants to make friends even if I have all green events with them. Is it possible to bring back friendship (if I'll behave correctly since now and of course won't get crushed by those who declared war on me) or I did start some kind of chain reaction and there is no way out?

Yes, but you'll have to be patient. If you have extra luxuries you can spare (well, at the moment no one probably wish to trade with you fairly anyway), gift them to the AI you have the most bright green modifiers/least red ones. Send trade routes to the city of that AI as well. In time you'll get a friend or they will at least accept to trade fairly. If you dare, you can also give them Open Border for nothing in return.

Also, if you've refused to sign a DoF with a civ not so long ago, the option to ask them for one disappears for a number of turns (quite a few on Marathon). It will return after a while.

Just be careful that you don't go and make it worse by actions like capturing cities. If attacked, defend yourself, kill units, pillage the territory of your foe, but don't capture its cities (you can accept one in a peace deal, though). Don't pillage a trade route that your foe is sending to another civ, the other civ will be angry. If the WC has been founded, try not to vote against the proposal of a civ you wish to become friendly with.

90 turns is not a very long time on Marathon. What you need to avoid now is that when the denouncements will be over, one of the civs will still hate you and denounce you again, which may restart a new chain of denouncements... If you are careful not to do anything, you will probably have made a friend or two before the denouncements are over and your relationships will be back to normal after the denouncement period is over.

That's hardly unique, by the way. One or another AI will often denounce you in your game, it's rather chain denouncements for having denounced someone with friends, or for warmongering that really hurt you. You can't be friends with everyone, or actually you can do it in the early game but sooner or later it sours up, after ideologies are chosen when it did not happen before.

 

[Camillo]

Lucky for my stupid self I had some autosaves and got back about 30 turns before I denounced Germany and France. Everything went completely different now. You are absolutely right Heretiv - AI considers denouncing as an aggressive act. If you denounce someone "just like that" AI will consider you as an aggressor and others will denounce you and no one would like to make friends. But this is kinda different if you denounce back someone. Some civs denounced me and I only denounced back - in this case other civs considered them as aggressors and my denouncements just as self-defence. Yes, some civs denounced me too but my friends denounced them. The globe did separate into 2 or 3 blocks of civs disliking other blocks of civs. Thanks for your replies guys.

 

[phillipwyllie]

My rule: Only denounce when you are ready to go to war