Is first strike only for attacking?
- Thread starter jonpfl
- Start date
PibbZ
Paladin
First strike round(s) are special. The number of them is determined by looking at the number of first strike rounds of the attacker and the defender. Whichever number is greater gets the difference of values in first strike opportunities. For x-y first strikes (possible first strikes), the math is still unproven, but it looks like a 50% likelihood of getting a first strike each "round" possible.
A first strike round is like any other round, except that the first striker is the only one who can do damage. For example, if the attacker has two first strikes and the defender zero, the first two rounds have two possibilities – the attacker wins so the defender loses damage or the defender “wins” and nobody gets hurt. The odds in this round are just like any other. The first striker is just immune to damage.
First strikes make the most dramatic difference to pure winning percentage when the two fighting units are very close in strength. Two units with identical strength and equal first strikes each have a 50% chance of winning (YAY! Something that finally makes sense in this mess of math). Give 1 a single first strike, though, and the odds of that unit winning goes up to 56.8%. That’s a tremendous difference. Take somebody at the 1.39:1 level and a first strike only matters a few percentage points (from 87.6% to 90.8% and still 84.5% if the weaker unit has the first strike). More than one first strike are similarly weighted towards mattering most for units close in strength. Raw strength is still VERY important, though. A unit with 3.3 strength and no first strikes will still kill a unit with 3 strength and 2 first strikes more often (~56% of the time).
The other thing, though, is that units with first strike are less likely to be wounded. First strike helps preserve hit points, so that a unit which won will be healthier. Back to the 3.3 vs. 3 with 2 first strikes example. The stronger unit wins more, but it deals, on average, 78.6 hps damage, while the first strike unit deals, on average, 79.8 hps damage. And the first striker is more than twice as likely to walk away uninjured as the stronger unit.
If your unit is barely stronger with first-strike or barely weaker without first strike, then the first strike promotion is better than a strength promotion. This appears true out to about the 1.38/1.39 strength ratio barrier. If the strength ratio is outside 1.38, strength beats first strike. And if strength would change which unit is stronger, strength wins out. Exact calculations on this may come later. One thing to note -- Combat I doesn't always give 10% to modified strength. An archer defending a city on a hill, for example, gains far less than 10% modified strength with Combat I (6 vs. 6.3). In cases with lots of bonuses, Drill might be the better promotion, potentially even over a 20/25% bonus.
(Taken from "Combat Explained" - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615) A good read if youre interested in theorycraft.
Hope this clears things up a bit
A first strike round is like any other round, except that the first striker is the only one who can do damage. For example, if the attacker has two first strikes and the defender zero, the first two rounds have two possibilities – the attacker wins so the defender loses damage or the defender “wins” and nobody gets hurt. The odds in this round are just like any other. The first striker is just immune to damage.
First strikes make the most dramatic difference to pure winning percentage when the two fighting units are very close in strength. Two units with identical strength and equal first strikes each have a 50% chance of winning (YAY! Something that finally makes sense in this mess of math). Give 1 a single first strike, though, and the odds of that unit winning goes up to 56.8%. That’s a tremendous difference. Take somebody at the 1.39:1 level and a first strike only matters a few percentage points (from 87.6% to 90.8% and still 84.5% if the weaker unit has the first strike). More than one first strike are similarly weighted towards mattering most for units close in strength. Raw strength is still VERY important, though. A unit with 3.3 strength and no first strikes will still kill a unit with 3 strength and 2 first strikes more often (~56% of the time).
The other thing, though, is that units with first strike are less likely to be wounded. First strike helps preserve hit points, so that a unit which won will be healthier. Back to the 3.3 vs. 3 with 2 first strikes example. The stronger unit wins more, but it deals, on average, 78.6 hps damage, while the first strike unit deals, on average, 79.8 hps damage. And the first striker is more than twice as likely to walk away uninjured as the stronger unit.
If your unit is barely stronger with first-strike or barely weaker without first strike, then the first strike promotion is better than a strength promotion. This appears true out to about the 1.38/1.39 strength ratio barrier. If the strength ratio is outside 1.38, strength beats first strike. And if strength would change which unit is stronger, strength wins out. Exact calculations on this may come later. One thing to note -- Combat I doesn't always give 10% to modified strength. An archer defending a city on a hill, for example, gains far less than 10% modified strength with Combat I (6 vs. 6.3). In cases with lots of bonuses, Drill might be the better promotion, potentially even over a 20/25% bonus.
(Taken from "Combat Explained" - http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615) A good read if youre interested in theorycraft.
Hope this clears things up a bit
What is the effect of first strike? I always get confused of its reach. Does it make your units "shocked" and paralyzed?
I still don't get it...
Hi
I think it works like this.
In normal combat two units - unit A and unit B- fight. Computer rolls a dice to decide who wins. If A wins the roll then he does damage to B. If B wins the roll he does damage to A. If whoever lost didnt get enough damage to win they do another round of dice and on and whoever's hit points get down to zero fist dies.
Now lets say Unit A has 1 first strike and Unit B has no first strikes. Before they do the normal rounds like I described above Unit A will get a first strike round. First strike round works like a normal round with just one diff. If A wins he does damage to B. BUT if B wins nothing happens..niether one takes any damage and then the next combat rounds go on as normal.
That means if a unit has first strikes that Unit has a chance to do FREE damage before the normal battle even starts.
Now combat LOTS more complicated than that of course, the odds of which unit wins things like strength and bonuses from promations and terrain and all that stuff come in but thats math and I DONT do math hehe
.First strikes dont do anything directly to odds of winning a fight. If Unit A is an archer with strength 3 but has 1 first strike and Unit B is modern armor with strength 40 and no first strike. The odds say the combat SHOULD go like this. Archer gets his first strike round which Modern Armor has like 99.999999% chance of winning and Modern armor does win so nothing happens. Then normal combat rounds happen and Archer gets mushed.
So if first strikes dont change odds why are they big dealio?
Lets say the units are little closer in strenght Unit A is Infantry strength 20and Unit B is a tank strenth 28. Unit A gets his first stike round and gets lucky and wins and now Unit B Tank is damaged. Since damaged units have lower strength and do less damage than if they were 100% maybe JUST maybe that lucky free roll was enough to turn the tide. Like maybe full strngth tank has 70% chance to win a combat round but now after being wounded it only has 55%. Odds say the Infantry is still gonna lose but battle now gonna be bloodier for the tank and Odds say even if tank does win it will be VERY wounded before it over and Infantry DOES have a better shot at winning now.
So closer units are in strength the more a first strike can turn the tide.
But it doesnt mean that's only useful for defnders or for weaker untis. Lets turn it around and say Unit A is the tank and Unit B is the infantry.
Odds say Tank will win. Lets say it 70%. Normal battle odds say it would go like this maybe Round 1 tank wins does damage to Infantry but not enough damage to kill it. Round two Infantry wins does damage to tank. Round three Tank wins does damage to infantry and infantry dies.
Now lets say instead of using Citty Raider promotions you been giving your Tanks Drill promotions and that Tank now has 3 first strikes. THEN battle would go like this.
Tank gets its 3 first strike rounds. The first round tank wins does damage to infantry. Second round Infantry wins but since it first strike round for the tank it does NO damage to tank. Third round Tank wins and Infantry dies.
In first example tank wins but is damaged and needs to heal before moving on. In second example Tank wins but is completely undamaged and good to go.
Now if two units both have first strikes whoever has more gets however many he has after subtracting the other units first strikes. Like if A has 4 first strikes and B has 2 first strikes then A gets 2 first strikes. If A has 4 and B has 1 then A gets 3 first strikes and so on.
Now like I said it can get waaaaaay more complicated than that. Like how does a unit who have 2-6 first strikes against a unti who has 2-4 first strikes work. Or if City Raider 1 and Drill 1 is better against this unit but City Raider 1 and City raider to is better against that unit.
If you one of those types who like math and always looking to figure out how to get untis chance to win from 88% to 92.3% you just need to do a search and you can find lots of nice threads with LOTS of math that just give me a headache hehe
But the cliffy notes version is
first strikes=chance at free damage. And more free strikes is better than less.
If units close in strength first strike has chance to turn tide in favor of unit who has more first strikes.
If units far apart in strength first strikes has SLIGHT AND VERY UNLIKELY chance of making the win bloodier and more costly for stronger unit to win and MAYBE even enough to for weaker unit to win if it gets lucky.
Or if it is the stronger unit with first strikes then it has chance of letting stronger unit come out of battle with no damage or less damage than it would have had without it.
Hope this helps little bit
Kaytie
Mhhh. I forgot...
So, which is better? To get extra "energy" (ie "combat 1-5" promotions) rather than drill?
I mean, if I have a combat 5 promotion unit vs a drill 2 promotion unit, it means that the first strike option is more powerful than the strength gained?
So, which is better? To get extra "energy" (ie "combat 1-5" promotions) rather than drill?
I mean, if I have a combat 5 promotion unit vs a drill 2 promotion unit, it means that the first strike option is more powerful than the strength gained?
PibbZ
Paladin
No, because a strength 6 unit will be a strength 9 unit with Combat 5, and still be a strength 6 unit with Drill 2, but a chance to do 2 free attacks before regular combat begins. Those free attacks is still based on the str 6 vs str 9, which doesnt give very good odds, and will probably miss.
As i said earlier, drill is good if you have the stronger unit, because then he will actually do some damage during those two free attacks.
Simplified:
You Attack the Combat V unit with your Drill II Unit.
Your Drill 2 Attacks a Combat V with free Drill attack: 6str vs 9str = Lose (Immune to damage though, so you dont lose any HP)
Your Drill 2 Attacks a Combat V with free Drill attack: 6str vs 9str = Lose again
Regular Combat Begins And your unit lose due to the strength difference.
(skipping a lot of those rounds for simplicity).
