Is it just me or are the Celts underrated?

[Athenaeum]

This type of logic really bothers me. Obviously if you're not going culture you're not going to be building Opera Houses - but the Celts don't have Opera Houses, they have Ceilidh Halls which are absolutely worth building. Refusing to adapt your playstyle to a civilization's strength is what makes people underrate so many strong civilizations. Stop thinking in terms of "what do I normally do" and think in terms of "what should I do to take advantage of this civilization's strengths".

More to the point, the Celts are quite strong, mostly because of the free pantheon and the Picts. Other posters have made a good point that the UA is only really strong if you have a good pantheon available, but in my experience that isn't particularly hard to do. The Picts are brutes that are very well suited for early aggression; they're absolutely one of the strongest Ancient Era units and can last a surprisingly long time depending on who your neighbors are. While the UA alone won't get you a religion, a couple early wars or aggressive barb clearing with the UU can.

First take into account that I almost exclusively play Multiplayer, and cultural victory is almost always out of the question.

The Celiedh Hall in my opinion is not nearly worth the amount of hammer investment or gold. Your philosophy that someone should go out of their way to adapt their play style to a civilization's strengths is exactly what causes people to overrate certain civs. Don't get me wrong, I like the Celts and I agree with you on the Picts and the UA but the Celeidh Hall is highly overrated.


If you invest the hammers in building amphitheaters and celeidh halls just for the extra three happiness, those are a lot of hammers that you could have been using for other purposes, such as to build science buildings, trade routes, wonders, an army to attack people, etc. That's also a lot of gold maintenance you're spending just for extra happiness. There are more hammer and gold-efficient ways to build up happiness than building amphitheaters and opera houses.


Your type of philosophy seems to be obsessive-compulsive in that you feel obligated to tweak your gameplay to a considerable degree just to make use of a civ's special traits. If you watch expert players like FilthyRobot for example, there are some games where he gets the Huns and doesn't attack anyone until late-game. There are some games where he gets Ethiopia and completely nullifies their UA by building ten cities (albeit he probably does this to build more Steles, but still). In the same way, you shouldn't rush Gunpowder before Education just so you can get America's Minuteman, and you shouldn't build Chateau's on every single tile that you can, because that culture and gold comes at the expense of other resources such as hammers, etc.


When deciding your play style, there are more relevant factors to consider, such as your spawn, your neighbors, the terrain around you, city-states, etc., than what you are "supposed to do" with the civ that you are playing.

 

[beetle]

First take into account that I almost exclusively play Multiplayer, and cultural victory is almost always out of the question.

I don’t agree that Opera Houses are only relevant to CV, but they might only be relevant to SP. Do MP games go long enough for Ideology pressure to be much of deciding factor?

Coming back to the Celts, is happiness much of a factor in MP? I would guess not, which makes their UB irrelevant for MP. So I agree with you there!

How competitive is your MP? Is it with strangers or friends? With strangers, MP can only be less flexible than SP Deity! OTOH, Deity is such that one certainly can mess around to play with UA/UB/UU more than is “optimal”. In both cases, a particularly strong UU, like the Minuteman, certainly warrants some deviation from your usual tech path. (No, not Gunpowder before Education, but right afterwards one would think!)

 

[docbud]

I've got to admit, I've never played as the Celts. I'll have to try them in my next game.

 

[bayard sartoris]

they are a good civ, but one thing i dislike is how soon the pantheon comes. i mean, by turn 10 i barely know where my expansioon is going to be, how can i tell the best pantheon choose? i had one game with the celts where i went +1 food from camps because i had ivory and deer, just to find, a few turns later, the great barrier reef (both workable) and lake victoria near my capital. if i were playing any other civ, maybe even ethiopia, i would had the time to know the area and instead choosing +4 faith from nw, which would be insane.
i didn't finish the game, i rage quited lol. but i had other runs with the celts and they are really fun to play.
the ub is also kind of hard to build, at least in a lot of cities. but the +3 happines compensates it, i guess

 

[Iberian]

First take into account that I almost exclusively play Multiplayer...

MP is a different game. Even within MP there are different tiers depending on FFA, 1v1, 2v2, etc.

That said Celts are still a decent MP civ. As is Poland, Babylon, and TommyNT.

 

[Xahz]

First take into account that I almost exclusively play Multiplayer, and cultural victory is almost always out of the question.

The Celiedh Hall in my opinion is not nearly worth the amount of hammer investment or gold. Your philosophy that someone should go out of their way to adapt their play style to a civilization's strengths is exactly what causes people to overrate certain civs. Don't get me wrong, I like the Celts and I agree with you on the Picts and the UA but the Celeidh Hall is highly overrated.


If you invest the hammers in building amphitheaters and celeidh halls just for the extra three happiness, those are a lot of hammers that you could have been using for other purposes, such as to build science buildings, trade routes, wonders, an army to attack people, etc. That's also a lot of gold maintenance you're spending just for extra happiness. There are more hammer and gold-efficient ways to build up happiness than building amphitheaters and opera houses.

Saying the Ceilidh Hall isn't worth the hammers is a very different argument than "I don't build them because I don't build Opera Houses". Also, I'm not sure what "more hammer efficient ways" to generate happiness you're referring to; Ceilidh Halls cost the same as Zoos but give an extra happiness, culture, and a great works slot.

I should note that I don't think they're a great UB for the same reason I don't really like the Mud Pyramid Mosque - I just don't think your original argument was very valid. I don't play much on MP so you clearly know a lot more about me in that area. But for SP Deity, whenever I'm on the warpath, I almost always find myself with happiness issues before I gain access to my Ideology. Having an extra +3 in each city is a great help if I can afford the production.

 

[noto2]

Opera Houses and Hermitage are not just for CV games, the Hermitage alone will mean another 3 or so policies before the end of the game, if built in your highest culture city.

Also, as far as MP goes, it's not the MP per se that changes the game, it's the other rules often stacked into MP games, such as max turns, no diplo, no CV, CTON, and stuff like that. With specific rules like that, it's no wonder the game changes. Most people spend most of their time playing this game SP, however, for logistic reasons if nothing else.

 

[Sclb]

Opera Houses and Hermitage are not just for CV games, the Hermitage alone will mean another 3 or so policies before the end of the game, if built in your highest culture city.

It's not going to happen unless you have a number of wonders, which you won't bother with unless you go for CV. That or you're playing too low of a difficulty. Most of the culture generated is from culture CS, you should know it. Also, if you're going for CV, you're likely to take aesthetic for the faster building of culture buildings, which certainly helps a lot.

 

[noto2]

I'm not talking MP. In my SP games I have to build the Hermitage if I want to adopt an ideology other than Order.

 

[Redaxe]

It's a nice amount of happiness certainly but it is very expensive. Opera Houses are generally not worth building unless you are specifically going for a culture victory.

For one thing the Amphitheatre costs 100 hammers and 1 gpt maintenance.
The Ceilidh Hall costs 200 hammers and 2 gpt maintenance.

So in total it is 300 hammers and 3 gpt to get +3

So that is quite a big cost if you have no real reason to build Opera Houses in the first place.

 

[Sclb]

I'm not talking MP. In my SP games I have to build the Hermitage if I want to adopt an ideology other than Order.

That's a common misconception. Even when I take Order, the AI can pick other ideologies, it doesn't matter.

 

[sunbeam]

I don't understand this whole thread.

After a certain point in the game, I don't worry in the slightest whether an opera house (or Celidh Hall) cost 1 gpt.

I just do not care. My GPT quite often is in the hundreds by the time I am thinking of building opera houses.

So what are you guys talking about exactly? Because I don't get it.

And another thing, I quite often am in the position of deciding what to build in cities. Quite often I pick "caravansaries" because devoting the city to "Research" or "Wealth" really isn't that impressive in the bigger picture. So, again, WTF are you guys talking about?

I've watched Marbozir frequently. I've seen other guys with lots of views on youtube. It's not like anybody really bothers to build opera houses (Hermitage is about only reason). But it's also not like anyone cares about 1 GPT as well.

So what are you guys talking about? Because I don't get it.

 

[sunbeam]

It's a nice amount of happiness certainly but it is very expensive. Opera Houses are generally not worth building unless you are specifically going for a culture victory.

For one thing the Amphitheatre costs 100 hammers and 1 gpt maintenance.
The Ceilidh Hall costs 200 hammers and 2 gpt maintenance.

So in total it is 300 hammers and 3 gpt to get +3

So that is quite a big cost if you have no real reason to build Opera Houses in the first place.

I totally disagree. I've run up against happiness issues going order for god's sakes.

 

[Sclb]

I totally disagree. I've run up against happiness issues going order for god's sakes.

A lot of this discussion depends on difficulty level. If you're running with huge gpt, why aren't you buying units/buildings to win faster?
In many of my games, especially ones involving conquering many cities with massive army, I'm almost always at negative gpt in late game, because conquered cities in resistance produce no gold. Whatever tricks you can use to increase gpt helps, removing roads, selling buildings, selling units, etc. Building Opera houses make little sense in this case, in part due to the difficulty to building national wonders in a very wide empire.

 

[Redaxe]

A lot of this discussion depends on difficulty level. If you're running with huge gpt, why aren't you buying units/buildings to win faster?
In many of my games, especially ones involving conquering many cities with massive army, I'm almost always at negative gpt in late game, because conquered cities in resistance produce no gold. Whatever tricks you can use to increase gpt helps, removing roads, selling buildings, selling units, etc. Building Opera houses make little sense in this case, in part due to the difficulty to building national wonders in a very wide empire.

Yes I'm more speaking from my experience with the Diety DCL games where generally you are trying to play catch up with the AI and with such short games you generally don't have a window to build Opera Houses - It's not that the Celtic UB is bad its just that often there is more stuff to prioritise. For that matter you might build one or two of them if the situation calls for it but also Celts should give you a religion so assuming you get some happiness beliefs you shouldn't be running into too many problems anyway.

At around King-Emperor-Immortal difficulty I think it would be very useful in most circumstances as the games are probably going to go a bit longer so you will have more time to get things done.

 

[noto2]

That's a common misconception. Even when I take Order, the AI can pick other ideologies, it doesn't matter.

Dunno what game you're playing. When I play civ5, 85% of the civs pick order, which means if I want to go autocracy or freedom I'd better have a lot of culture, or I suffer unrest.

 

[Athenaeum]

I don’t agree that Opera Houses are only relevant to CV, but they might only be relevant to SP. Do MP games go long enough for Ideology pressure to be much of deciding factor?

Coming back to the Celts, is happiness much of a factor in MP? I would guess not, which makes their UB irrelevant for MP. So I agree with you there!

How competitive is your MP? Is it with strangers or friends? With strangers, MP can only be less flexible than SP Deity! OTOH, Deity is such that one certainly can mess around to play with UA/UB/UU more than is “optimal”. In both cases, a particularly strong UU, like the Minuteman, certainly warrants some deviation from your usual tech path. (No, not Gunpowder before Education, but right afterwards one would think!)

In my extensive MP experience ideology pressure is almost a non-issue in games that are not with NQ. Even in NQ games ideology pressure is still usually not that much of an issue, because human players just can't seem to raise as much tourism as Deity AI's can.


When I used to play single player, I absolutely would build opera houses. However by the late-game, your happiness is usually between 20-50 either way so -7 or -8 from a little bit of pressure is not going to sink your civ.

 

[Athenaeum]

Saying the Ceilidh Hall isn't worth the hammers is a very different argument than "I don't build them because I don't build Opera Houses". Also, I'm not sure what "more hammer efficient ways" to generate happiness you're referring to; Ceilidh Halls cost the same as Zoos but give an extra happiness, culture, and a great works slot.

I should note that I don't think they're a great UB for the same reason I don't really like the Mud Pyramid Mosque - I just don't think your original argument was very valid. I don't play much on MP so you clearly know a lot more about me in that area. But for SP Deity, whenever I'm on the warpath, I almost always find myself with happiness issues before I gain access to my Ideology. Having an extra +3 in each city is a great help if I can afford the production.

It is not a different argument. I typically don't build opera houses because opera houses are not worth the hammers IME.


Do opera houses cost the same amount of hammers as zoos, or the same amount of gold maintenance? They might cost the same amount of gold maintenance, but you have to factor in the gold maintenance and hammers costs from amphitheaters as well. If one could build opera houses without first building amphitheaters my opinion on this would be much different.


Furthermore as I pointed out earlier (and as you just confirmed), playing on Deity SP is far different than multiplayer. By mid-late game happiness is usually not a problem at all, and you can usually expect to have anywhere between 20-50 in my experience.


The way that happiness works on this game is such that you want to keep your head above water, but otherwise having 100 extra happiness is not going to win you the game. The golden ages are a nice bonus, but they can be started by great artists, and as long as your happiness is at least mediocre you will still reach that golden age, albeit at a later time.

 

[Iberian]

If your goal is to win fast then building an opera house is a bad investment unless you are going for a CV.

I don't think you can argue that point given the evidence found in the best win times posted in the games here. What you can argue though is for someone who is playing for score or just likes playing as a builder the Celtic UB is quite an upgrade. The Deity tier list and most players value quick wins and sure wins over long builder games and that is why this particular UB is almost worthless to most.

 

[zxcvbob]

I've never really considered not building opera houses; I kinda thought building (and filling) the Hermitage was a must, otherwise it takes too long to get to your 3rd tier ideology tenets. And meanwhile, the cultural AI's are eating your lunch with ideology pressure. But I don't play at the Deity level yet; maybe that makes the difference.