Is it just me, or is a wheat tile worse than a non-wheat tile?

[Zechnophobe]

Sorry, but you're the one who's wrong. The value of non-freshwater Wheat in CIV5 starts to scale down when other tiles become more powerful and when cities grow large, which is in the late game. Exactly when Sushi enters the scene.

I'm confused, do you mean 'civ 4' there? Obviously Sid's Sushi isn't in civ 5.

In civ 4 you need: A Merchant Specialist, you need to research ... I think it is like Medicine or something? Late Industrial Age tech that I don't recall. At that point Biology has give your farms +1 food. You also must pay production to buy each executive, and spend money to spread it. In general, all the corporations in BTS were 'win more' strategies, but still pretty cool.

In civ 5, what is outclassed by other things pretty quick. Civil Service Lessens its percentile benefit on fresh locations. You are likely going to have at least one Maritime ally starting sometime in Classical Era, which hurts it as well. You can't build ON the wheat for additional food (unless on flood plain). It just ends up being ho-hum.

Also Sid's didn't rely on your own resources. As a matter of fact, in most of my games the majority of seafood and rice came from trades. After I got Sid's I usually removed workers from my resource food tiles and changed all farms to cottages. Thus the effects are basically the same.

You plowed your wheat or corn tiles to put up cottages? I'm really skeptical of that. Or you just removed the workers and never put them back? Does part of this strategy involve getting a lot of Future Tech as well? Why not just work the food, and use the extra citizens for specialists instead of waiting 50 turns for the cottage to slowly mature?

Civ 4 games really didn't last that much longer than the era where Sid's even became relevant. And we are talking strategy here, not just 'well, sometimes I like to play 500 turn games on standard speed and just perfect my civ forever'. Sandbox is well and good, but a completely different scenario

Also, maritime city-states don't come from turn one.

Can't wait for the maritimes to get the nerf bat. 99% of arguments on this forum are "BUT MARITIME !!!1ONELEVEN".

Well, I'd cheer it on with you, since Maritime CS are pretty silly right now. And yeah, you aren't going to ally with a city state on turn 1, it is correct by a reasonable magnitude.

 

[pi-r8]

It's incredibly annoying that, not only is the extra food pretty much useless thanks to small cities and maritime food, but the game won't let you build anything on wheat except a farm. Did someone really think that building trading posts on wheat or sheep would break the game?

 

[Celevin]

It's incredibly annoying that, not only is the extra food pretty much useless thanks to small cities and maritime food, but the game won't let you build anything on wheat except a farm. Did someone really think that building trading posts on wheat or sheep would break the game?

Building a farm on wheat (before Civil Service) also only nets you +1 food. I would rather gain the +2 gold from building the trading post. This creates the funny situation where wheat is actually one of the resources that gets improved *last*!

 

[Ichabod]

Other thing about corporations in Civ IV is that in the higher difficulties, being the founder of a Corp wasn't something you could count on. You have to beeline to medicine (for sushi), tech corporation (it was one of the toughest techs to get in a trade from the AI) and manage to get a GM (getting pure GP points late in the game is very hard, especially if you're already at emancipation).

Way harder then clicking on a city state and clicking "git XXX gold" -

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maritime is BEGGING to get slapped with a nerf stick. Of the city states, it is the ONLY one that scales VERY well with empire size, militaristic and cultural both give less relative returns for larger empires.

In a balanced game maritime will not last long. The food resource tiles themselves are fine and make the total tile yield stronger than others. Terrain does actually matter in this game.

 

[Jamuka]

Riverside wheat is the only tile that gives 5 yield between production and food. Doesn't that make it the best tile?
Every other resource tile, including non-riverside wheat, gives 4 yield and takes away the option of building trading posts. Worse than generic tiles a lot of the time.

 

[pi-r8]

Maritime is BEGGING to get slapped with a nerf stick. Of the city states, it is the ONLY one that scales VERY well with empire size, militaristic and cultural both give less relative returns for larger empires.

In a balanced game maritime will not last long. The food resource tiles themselves are fine and make the total tile yield stronger than others. Terrain does actually matter in this game.

Yeah that's true, if you don't have any maritime allies then the wheat is actually useful.

 

[pauluslupus]

I am curious, what would happen, if you build city on wheat resource. Would you get 3 food instead of 2?

 

[kaltorak]

My complaint is not against maritime CS. What I don't like is that working resource tiles is not very appealing compared to non resource tiles. It goes from a bit better to a bit worse, so at the end its about the same.

I find that very boring because it makes land homogeneous. Great map spot versus horrible map spots would make the map more interesting and fun

 

[Danceofmasks]

Hmm.
Is it possible to build a landmark (or other GP structure) on a wheat tile?

 

[Celevin]

Maritime is BEGGING to get slapped with a nerf stick. Of the city states, it is the ONLY one that scales VERY well with empire size, militaristic and cultural both give less relative returns for larger empires.

In a balanced game maritime will not last long. The food resource tiles themselves are fine and make the total tile yield stronger than others. Terrain does actually matter in this game.

I think Culturals are completely off as well. Maritimes are really bad - they double in effectiveness at 2 cities compared to 1, then double again at 4, then double again at 8. Cultural does near the opposite. It halves in effectiveness from 1 to about 4 cities, then halves again at about 11 (assuming standard map size). It makes 1-city empires the fastest at culture which just feels wrong in my mind.

 

[Druin]

My complaint is not against maritime CS. What I don't like is that working resource tiles is not very appealing compared to non resource tiles. It goes from a bit better to a bit worse, so at the end its about the same.

I find that very boring because it makes land homogeneous. Great map spot versus horrible map spots would make the map more interesting and fun

I would highly recommend playing with Thalassicus' Balance-Terrain Improvement / Balance - City Development mods. They both work to fix the "bland" feel that some players get from Civ V.

Hmm.
Is it possible to build a landmark (or other GP structure) on a wheat tile?

Yes it is. Landmark on bananas/cows is an especially strong choice due to both resources having such small upgrades through improvements. River deer landmark is also strong because the tile will get both golden age buffs while still providing the food it takes to work and the culture.

I would shy away from landmarking wheat because post-civil service, the farm that you would improve wheat with actually does improve its value.

 

[Unearthly]

Talking mods, the Economy Mod makes changes specifically targeting economic resources. It turns them into limited resources (like strategic) that you use to build powerful buildings. Using that, I hunt wheat and fish like nothing else.

 

[Guru-Meditation]

If this is true I'll hate the designers even more.

I want city placement to matter. I want to be happy if I find a spot with lots of resources. I don't want to just fill the map following the ICS tactics, building anywhere.

Damn do I hate how they tried to balance civ5 so that anything will work.

Damn. I feel exactly the same about the nerfed bonus resources.

 

[pauluslupus]

I am curious, what would happen, if you build city on wheat resource. Would you get 3 food instead of 2?

I have not tested it yet in game, but I found really interesting recommendation from Zechnophobe in myth 3.:

Myth 3, Settle Next to food resources.

Well, this isn't exactly a myth, but I felt I should point out that you want to settle ON food resources, especially wheat and cows. Each will give your city square +1 food. This is amazingly important for your capital, since it will allow you to work more productive tiles in the early game, when you so desperately need it. EDIT: Let me clarify, this only helps if the base tile would give more food than a normal city. That is, a cow on grassland or wheat on flood plain. Sheep on hills will have no effect. I have not empircally tested banana's yet.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Wheat on flood plain = 3 food base tile. Grassland cows also. Those are the only two I think. I, uh, still haven't tested bananas.

 

[Bibor]

Wheat on flood plain = 3 food base tile. Grassland cows also. Those are the only two I think. I, uh, still haven't tested bananas.

Bananas are 4 with plantation

 

[Zechnophobe]

Bananas are 4 with plantation

Sorry, I was replying to the person before me, and meant that the amount of 'food' you get from settling on TOP of them. I don't know if you have a 3 food city center if you settle on bananas.

 

[CrimsonEdge]

Why would you prefer a 4-yield tile over a 5-yield tile? Since when does 2 gold trump 2 food?

Depends. If it's going to take me 200 turns to get another population or have it be stagnant I'd rather get 400 gold over those turns than a new population.

400 gold>1 population over 200 turns.

ETA: I'd even argue that a new citizen over 40 turns isn't worth 80 gold.

ETAA: And yes, 1 pop over 200 turns is a realistic mid-late game scenario.

 

[CHEESE!]

Radioactive wheat! The menace to society!