Is it normal for the CPU to be this far advanced?

[Captain Corky]

I'm moving up to Monarch (which I'll go back and forth on, trying to get it), and I also bumped the size of the map. I didn't realize how much different the game is on the standard map. I usually like quicker games because Civ eats up time as it is.

Anyway, I've secured myself a huge chunk of land, but the Incas have 6 technologies that I don't have. I don't have any tech they don't. Now, a couple of them are Monarchy, Republic, and Printing Press, which have their value, but are either old or not worth researching to me. They also have Music Theory, which I'm not going to need.

Should this be happening at this point in the game? I'm guessing it's typical, and why trading is so important. Am I right here?

 

[civverguy]

I don't think it should.

 

[vmxa]

Hard to sAy. Not sure what the settings are for the game. Sounds like std map, how many civs? Is it Pangea? What about the barb settigns and the civs?

If using barbs and any expansionist civs in the game on a panges, then they will jump off to a nice start with techs and settlers from huts. They will trade them around with fast contacts and the Aa will go fairly fast.

If you are not trading, be it a variant or just not doing it, you will have to hustle to get up to speed.

If you are trading some, you should be right with them to this point, maybe ahead some, depends on a lot of things. This is about where you should be pulling away.

If you have learned to expand quickly and make good use of workers and troops, you should be fine.

 

[gmaharriet]

Anyway, I've secured myself a huge chunk of land, but the Incas have 6 technologies that I don't have. I don't have any tech they don't. Now, a couple of them are Monarchy, Republic, and Printing Press, which have their value, but are either old or not worth researching to me. They also have Music Theory, which I'm not going to need.

Should this be happening at this point in the game? I'm guessing it's typical, and why trading is so important. Am I right here?

I have the same questions of you that vmxa asked, but several other things stand out for me in what you've posted so far.

You didn't say just where you are "at this point in the game". It would make a big difference if you are still in the Ancient Age vs the Middle Ages.

If the Inca are your only opponent on a standard map, your game has to be badly distorted, since 7 opponents is the norm.

If the Inca know both Republic and Monarchy and you don't know either, it sounds like you are still in Despotism, and that IS a major problem since it is the worst possible government to be in.

You're correct that trading is important. You want to be researching techs the other AIs don't have and doing lots of trading (a whole huge topic by itself). The AI tends to research all the 1st-level techs first (top to bottom on the left-hand side in the Ancient Age), where it is advantageous to the human player to research horizontally (left to right) along a path. They are researching the cheaper techs while you get the more valuable ones and use them to trade for all the cheaper ones.

There are some advantages to the human player by reducing the number of opponents (more time to expand before getting crowded), but some decided disadvantages, as I learned the hard way. Fewer civs means fewer resources generated on the map, so you'll be more likely to be missing something you need, like iron or horses or luxes. When you DO feel ready to attack, it can be a very long walk for your units to get to your victim. If you must player with fewer civs, try 5 or 6, rather than 7 (standard map).

 

[Pyrrhos]

If the Inca know both Republic and Monarchy and you don't know either, it sounds like you are still in Despotism, and that IS a major problem since it is the worst possible government to be in.

To me it sounds as if you're not devoting enough resources to science. On this level, it is perfectly possible to be ahead in science at the stage you mention - even if you're in despotism, even if the AI trades freely. (Unless your civ is religious, only one change of government is advisable - despo to demo.)

 

[RFHolloway]

To me it sounds as if you're not devoting enough resources to science. On this level, it is perfectly possible to be ahead in science at the stage you mention - even if you're in despotism, even if the AI trades freely. (Unless your civ is religious, only one change of government is advisable - despo to demo.)

You are waiting till demo to change governments Try a game where you only make one change of government but it is despo to republic. See if that helps your tech pace a bit.

 

[Pyrrhos]

Why? At the beginning of the MA, I still get new techs every five to six turns. By mid/late-MA its every four turns.

If I'm running a religious civ, fine, I go ahead and change as there's only one turn of anarchy. But why incur three turns of anarch at a pivotal stage of the game? Why in effect ADD three turns to my building time of Sun Tzu's or the Sistine which might lose me those wonders?

 

[RFHolloway]

Why?

If you are religious the benefits of republic for a whole age are worthwhile

if you are not religious the length of time of anarchy is dependant in part on the size of your empire - better to revolt sooner and get 3-5 turns than revolt later and get 6-8 turns.

The benefits of getting out of despotism are significant. just to take a couple of examples - you can irrigate grass. That gives you additional food which means that you grow faster, and more growth means more territory. More territory means more base commerce which means more science. If shields are your thing you can now get 3 shields from mined hills. More shields means more libraries, or more units to go conquer territories with, or more shields to speed up your production of wonders.

 

[MAS]

I usually revolt to republic as soon as I get it, That is, when I'm still in the AA. As its my first research target.

I research, alpha-->writing-->CoL-->Philo-->republic, -->revolt, -->trade for the other tech.

 

[Pyrrhos]

We play differently, Mr RF!

Usually, my first tech beeline is for Philosophy so I can get the most "expensive" tech (in terms of turns) - Construction - for free. That usually gains me some 16 turns in which to get Literature, Map Making & Code of Laws. Then it's time to climb out of the quagmire of the AA. (Of course I try to trade for as many texhs as possible in order to speed things up.) The only useful AA wonder - the way I play - is the Pyramids & it's touch-and-go whether I get it or not.

Onto the Middle Ages. First beeline - Invention & Leonardo's workshop with Sun Tzu's as a pleasant byproduct. Second beeline - Music Theory & Bach's Cathedral with the Sistine Chapel enroute. I've just saved myself a huge amount of GP in upgrade costs as well as being able to research just about every future tech in four turns whilst making good money to pay for future upgrades and cash-rushing buildings & units!

Third MA beeline - Democracy and my sole change of government (unless I play a religious Civ). Now I get the benefit of all those already irrigated and mined squares. My first and second ring cities OCP are already at pop 12, my third 7-10.

Fourth MA beeline (albeit just the one tech) - Economics & Smith's. Whoppee! I just shaved off a huge amount of cash so I can research all the IA tech in four turns.

Fifth MA beeline - Navigation & Magellan's. Whopee! I'm first here too! Then it's time for the rest of the MA techs.

In my (limited) experience, going for the Republic on mid-level difficulty settings means I lose the MA tech & wonder race! By the time I get the Republic (or Monarchy for that matter), I go after the game-deciding early MA techs and wonders to make sure I get them. There simply aren't enough turns to justify a change - unless, of course, I play a religious civ.

Perhaps this is not the most efficient way of playing. Quite likely other players would get there quicker and be "the firstest with the mostest" (U.S. Grant?). But I do not play other players. I play the AI and this way, on Monarch and Emperor, large to huge maps, has been quite effective!

 

[Aabraxan]

Why? At the beginning of the MA, I still get new techs every five to six turns. By mid/late-MA its every four turns.

Why? Because in Republic, you could still do this and increase your gpt considerably. Republic always has some "growing pains" in my games, but I always make up for it in fairly short order.

@Captain Corky -- posting a save would help, too.

 

[Captain Corky]

Hard to sAy. Not sure what the settings are for the game. Sounds like std map, how many civs? Is it Pangea? What about the barb settigns and the civs?

Std map, 7 other civs, Continents (70% water), barb is on "roaming". The other civs are Inca, Persian, Dutch, English, Mongols, Vikings, and the Hitties (who I haven't met yet).

You didn't say just where you are "at this point in the game". It would make a big difference if you are still in the Ancient Age vs the Middle Ages.

In the middle of the Middle Ages.

If the Inca know both Republic and Monarchy and you don't know either, it sounds like you are still in Despotism, and that IS a major problem since it is the worst possible government to be in.

Fortunately, I traded for Feudalism and switched to that.

You're correct that trading is important. You want to be researching techs the other AIs don't have and doing lots of trading (a whole huge topic by itself). The AI tends to research all the 1st-level techs first (top to bottom on the left-hand side in the Ancient Age), where it is advantageous to the human player to research horizontally (left to right) along a path. They are researching the cheaper techs while you get the more valuable ones and use them to trade for all the cheaper ones.

Definitely what I end up doing. There is something great about seeing "Ironclads" amongst the list of techs the computer has. The player has a huge advantage in that sense.

When you DO feel ready to attack, it can be a very long walk for your units to get to your victim. If you must player with fewer civs, try 5 or 6, rather than 7 (standard map).

To me it sounds as if you're not devoting enough resources to science. On this level, it is perfectly possible to be ahead in science at the stage you mention - even if you're in despotism, even if the AI trades freely. (Unless your civ is religious, only one change of government is advisable - despo to demo.)

I don't *think* that's the case. Usually it's set pretty high. I could be wrong, but I think part of my "problem" was that I had a huge amount of land to settle, which left me devoting a lot of resources to setting things up. What happened, early in the game, is that my main island is connected to the Mongol's main island by one square, which I settled my city on so that I could have my part of the island to myself. Now I'm catching up a bit, since my cities are finally starting to develop.


I posted a save game. Take note that accelerated production is on.

 

[Captain Corky]

A little update, after some dealing, I managed to catch up in tech. I have Steam Power, while the Persians have Nationalism. The only other techs I don't have are Republic & Music Theory (useless anyway, since someone build J.S. Bach's Cath.).

 

[Pyrrhos]

Good job! Now put a railroad on every square and see what a dramatic change that does to your productivity! Do you have Economics (MA) which allows you to build Smith's?

Science-wise, it's a good option to make a beeline for Electronics and the Hoover Dam. (F6, just left-click Electronics and the AI will research all the neccessary techs to get there.) Once you get Electronics, research Replaceable Parts as this will give you infantry and your railroad crews will suddenly do twice as much work per turn. Then a beeline for Motorised Transport for tanks - and battleships along the way. Then Advanced Flight and - oh! We're suddenly into the Modern Age!


Sorry if I'm knocking down already open doors and teaching granny to suck eggs with redundant advice. I'm not really that more advanced a player, just a few weeks back I was asking myself exactly the same questions you do now and this is the answer I came up with. Works for me...

 

[vmxa]

"Fortunately, I traded for Feudalism and switched to that."

I would say that unfortunate as it is a very poor gov to be in. You have exp civ(s) in the game and scientific civ(s). This does help he AI get a good start at the middle ages, but not much after that.

 

[vmxa]

Ok, I only gave this a cursory look, but you have many problems.
Towns are poorly placed. It is not a great start, I grant you and that partially accounts for the AI being ahead.

The rest is your fault. You need to take advantage of the land. You know you are on an island or some thin land strip. That means pack those towns in close.

You have to get down as many towns as you can. Then you have to improve the land immediately, that means close to two workers per town.

You must have roads to all towns and roads on all worked tiles at all times. Get as many workers as it takes to accomplish that.

Worker turns are not to be frittered away. Do not have them change directions and back track, especially over unroaded tiles. Plan their movement and task.

No water is brought to many of them towns, no irrigation at all. Yes it is not beneficial in despot on grass, but you need it on wheat, cows and you need it after despotism, so it may need to be done to get it some place anyway.

Units suck. 18 spears is only for AW games or some especially rough high level start. I would not have any at this level or at least no more than a couple.

11 workers
1 warrior
18 spear
4 horse
3 knights

no wonders, they are not required, but why give them all to the AI to use against you.

trading lux and iorn for preace?

why make a bank in Bursa, it only makes 7 gold.
Iznik uni? 7 beakers, too many coastal tiles being worked, not much in the way of mines.
Izmit has a bg tile not mined, while worker pounds away on a hill and a coastal tile is worked? Why a cath?
Aydin doing a carth? Has a joker?
Kafa market? It is size 2 tundra town. Make workers or trebs.

I hate seeing working on mountains in an empire that ahs a ton of un roaded grass tiles.

You had a small area to defend and you had a choke and still someone got a town down behind the choke???

You have no map of the world at this late date? You had all sorts of coastal towns, get a curraugh out asap in the ealry game, find some friends.

You could have make some good trades if you had the contacts early.

Town structures is very poor. Cath are not to be build, you could use attackers to expand you holdings, but wait you have none and now cannot afford to make them. Use the lux slider instead. Pop has to be working not entertaining.

What are you saving all those forest for, you could have chopped some to speed up key builds.

The reason the AI is ahead can be seen in the way the game was played. I would have expected that from the question. Look for a good low level traing SG in the older games where the trainer took the time to explain how to manage an empire in the AA to see what could be done, even with this start.

If that is not available and I think Toby Rowes early ones do this well. Then make a new game and start a thread and play 40 turns and post a log of what you did. Then play to turn 100 with a log to post, while you wait for someone to take the time to critic the first 40.

You can learn a lot that way. GOOD LUCK.

 

[Captain Corky]

There is quite a bit of great constructive criticism, but they all kinda speak for themselves. I just have one question...

I would say that unfortunate as it is a very poor gov to be in. You have exp civ(s) in the game and scientific civ(s). This does help he AI get a good start at the middle ages, but not much after that.

What makes Feudalism so poor to be in? Would you recommend Monarchy, or perhaps Republic? Thanks for the advice.


BTW, as far as the game goes, I've built a lot of Siphias and took on the Mongols, expanding my terroritory greatly. I'm generally ahead in tech at this point, but sometimes the Persians jump ahead.

 

[gmaharriet]

What makes Feudalism so poor to be in? Would you recommend Monarchy, or perhaps Republic?

Feudalism has unit support of town-5/city-2/metro-1, and it costs 3gpt for each unit over the support limit.

Republic has town-1/city-3/metro-4 and costs 2gpt over limit.

Both are subject to war weariness, though Feudalism allows 3 MPs.

I think Monarchy is 4/4/4 and no war weariness, making it a great government for Always War, but not just for frequent wars.

Feudalism works best for a 100k culture game. You can pop-rush temples, libs, unis, caths and colosseums. The pop-rushing keeps your populations very small, and so gets the benefit of town-sized unit support. However, in most types of game you want your towns to grow and unit support becomes very expensive indeed.

Republic is the government of choice for most experienced players for most types of game. The unit support is pretty good, war weariness is manageable, you get the commerce bonus and you don't need to tie up your units as MPs. Cash-rushing keeps your population high.

 

[MAS]

Monarchy has 2/4/8. Despotism has 4/4/4 This is why switching to monarchy early can also be problematic, just like switching to republic. It has less unit support for towns

 

[gmaharriet]

Monarchy has 2/4/8.

Thanks for the correction, MAS. I obviously don't use it often.