Is Piety Worth It? (Cult/Diplo Victory)

[Liberty Prime]

I've been consistently struggling with an optimal social policy order when going for primarily a culture victory (my favorite, but by far the hardest from my experience)

I play on Prince, and have been practicing with Babylon, Poland, Egypt, and Sweden..I always manage to grab the Great Library and Hanging Gardens right away. Maybe I should stop going for the Great Library as I hear it's impossible to get on harder difficulties.I'm always afraid of falling too far behind in science, not grabbing essential wonders, or not generating great scientists and artist as soon as possible. I end up never building an army and getting curb stomped harder than OJs wife by my jealous neighbor.

My issue is balancing the tradition/piety/aesthetics policies, knowing how early to build a second, third, or fourth settler, and avoiding war with my neighbors at all costs. It seems like if you want to start with culture you need a lot of science just to keep up, and you end up with diplomatic perks by the end of the game.
I feel this would be a whooole lot easier if I just ignored piety (and thus the religion race) completely. I'm loving the boosts you get, but in the end everyone with a religion hates you and it can be very difficult to avoid war (which is absolutely essential when you're so busy trying to build everything)

My policy/tech order changes depending on the map of course, but in general what order are your social policies and tech trees? Every game I tend to go incredibly tall (capital ends with 40-50 pop, surrounding cities in the 30s)

My SP order is usually Trad Opener -> 15% whore bonus -> Piety Opener -> +1 faith bonus -> Oh-****-Aesthetics-is-available-but-Im-busy-building-the-hanging-gardens so 25% temple gold bonus -> WTH am I doing oh god

Tech order: Beeline Writing -> Calendar/Trapping depending on resources available -> Beeline Hanging Gardens -> Beeline Great artist-> Theology -> Beeline leaning tower of great people

Build order: Culture tower -> Worker -> Great Library-> National College->Settler/Hanging Gardens-> Writer Guild-> National Great Person Building-> Artist Guild-> Settler?

Edit- It should be noted that I never play with Ancient Ruins. I think they add too much RNG in an already random game, and the bonuses can be way too large early game especially when playing with the Shoshone.

 

[Acken]

I've been consistently struggling with an optimal social policy order when going for primarily a culture victory (my favorite, but by far the hardest from my experience)

I play on Prince, and have been practicing with Babylon, Poland, Egypt, and Sweden..I always manage to grab the Great Library and Hanging Gardens right away. Maybe I should stop going for the Great Library as I hear it's impossible to get on harder difficulties.I'm always afraid of falling too far behind in science, not grabbing essential wonders, or not generating great scientists and artist as soon as possible. I end up never building an army and getting curb stomped harder than OJs wife by my jealous neighbor.


My issue is balancing the tradition/piety/aesthetics policies, knowing how early to build a second, third, or fourth settler, and avoiding war with my neighbors at all costs. It seems like if you want to start with culture you need a lot of science just to keep up, and you end up with diplomatic perks by the end of the game.
I feel this would be a whooole lot easier if I just ignored piety (and thus the religion race) completely. I'm loving the boosts you get, but in the end everyone with a religion hates you and it can be very difficult to avoid war (which is absolutely essential when you're so busy trying to build everything)

My policy/tech order changes depending on the map of course, but in general what order are your social policies and tech trees? Every game I tend to go incredibly tall (capital ends with 40-50 pop, surrounding cities in the 30s)

My SP order is usually Trad Opener -> 15% whore bonus -> Piety Opener -> +1 faith bonus -> Oh-****-Aesthetics-is-available-but-Im-busy-building-the-hanging-gardens so 25% temple gold bonus -> WTH am I doing oh god

Skip Piety, complete Tradition first.

The maths have been known for a while and Piety simply blows with the exception of Sacred Site city spam which I wouldnt recommend on someone trying to learn how to play well and go up in difficulties.

Tech order: Beeline Writing -> Calendar/Trapping depending on resources available -> Beeline Hanging Gardens -> Beeline Great artist-> Theology -> Beeline leaning tower of great people

What is your worker doing without mining and/or animal husbandry ? Get production/food improvements first.

Build order: Culture tower -> Worker -> Great Library-> National College->Settler/Hanging Gardens-> Writer Guild-> National Great Person Building-> Artist Guild-> Settler?

You should make some scouts. Also either you make the GL/NC that early and then pump out settlers or you make the settlers before (which is better). But your settlers are certainly way too late in that build order either way.

 

[HEF]

Pay attention to map yields, resource icons, position on the map, and the Advisor Council. You don't necessarily need to have the Advisors active but believe it or not, their feedback is very useful in giving hints what the other civilizations are doing at the time and how well you are progressing, if you inquire.

Regarding build orders, try queue-ing up the limits of everything you want to build in each City you found and begin shaving off the amount of turns based on what you want to deploy/erect by bumping the order up and down the list.

Regarding the Tech Tree, try not to beeline too far in the Tech Tree because when that happens the player gets left behind in the previous Era; you must research everything within the current Era to advance. Science advances the Tech tree much more efficiently so it would be wise to stack this statistic higher than the others. Treat the Tech Tree as you would when queue-ing your list in each City you found by shaving off the amount of turns based on what your priorities are.

Keep an eye on the Happiness statistic to avoid penalties for the troops you field.

If you want to avoid war, well...
---if your troop size is greater than your opponent(s) no one would mess with your civilization now would they?

 

[Liberty Prime]

What is your worker doing without mining and/or animal husbandry ? Get production/food improvements first.

oh, after learning writing and while my cap is building the Great Library, I tech either calendar, trapping/animal husbandry, or masonry/mining depending on the resources available in my capital. If I have an early worker before I've teched any of those then I build a farm.

Regarding build orders, try queue-ing up the limits of everything you want to build in each City you found and begin shaving off the amount of turns based on what you want to deploy/erect by bumping the order up and down the list.

What do you mean by this exactly? Do you mean start building things that I know won't be finished by the time a World Wonder is teched, just so it will be built faster by the time I get around to it?

In my experience grabbing an early National College thanks to the free tech from the GL wonder, before founding a second city keeps my science in a comfy position. Should I ignore that boost and go straight for tile improvements, early settlers, and beelining for the Great Writers and Great Artists Guilds? If I do this then perhaps I could go Liberty over Tradition and keep Piety in check for the Religious bonuses (yes, I go Religious Art, Chapels, Tithes/Papal Primacy, and Sacred Sites while going tall)

I suppose I'll skip piety all together if going Tradition from now on. I feel like its sooo close to becoming viable, but it's just too slow/too much to build and keep track of before being able to build a defensive army.

 

[HEF]

What do you mean by this exactly? Do you mean start building things that I know won't be finished by the time a World Wonder is teched, just so it will be built faster by the time I get around to it?

In my experience grabbing an early National College thanks to the free tech from the GL wonder, before founding a second city keeps my science in a comfy position. Should I ignore that boost and go straight for tile improvements, early settlers, and beelining for the Great Writers and Great Artists Guilds? If I do this then perhaps I could go Liberty over Tradition and keep Piety in check for the Religious bonuses (yes, I go Religious Art, Chapels, Tithes/Papal Primacy, and Sacred Sites while going tall)

There it is!
You've answered your own question.

Regarding the queue list, I was merely reminding you that the player can list up to 6 items and prioritize each item by bumping each item up and down according to what you want or need.

Sometimes, an item on the list may take many turns to complete and the Production statistic just isn't there so shaving off as many turns may be the temporary solution until some event or other game element comes along to boost its completion.

Just a tip.

 

[Acken]

In my experience grabbing an early National College thanks to the free tech from the GL wonder, before founding a second city keeps my science in a comfy position. Should I ignore that boost and go straight for tile improvements, early settlers

Ideally yes. Try with a 3 city opener first and then when comfortable try to do 4. Good build orders that include workers usually look something like (Scouts 2-3, Worker, Monument) (Granary, Shrine, Settlers x3, Archer, Worker) where everything in a parenthesis can be ordered as you feel and additional workers from new cities or capital (try to have 1 worker per city).

, and beelining for the Great Writers and Great Artists Guilds?

Useless to beeline these. Get your economy/science going first then you ll add the guilds.

If I do this then perhaps I could go Liberty over Tradition and keep Piety in check for the Religious bonuses (yes, I go Religious Art, Chapels, Tithes/Papal Primacy, and Sacred Sites while going tall)

The piety bonuses are rather bad for culture as you are better off finishing your first tree and then invest in Aesthetics / Rationalism. Mostly because you dont need the tree to get a religion outside of the reformation belief which is not worth a 5 points investment.

Tradition is easier to play than Liberty. Its up to you but Id try to master a tradition game first and then explore with Liberty openers.

 

[Liberty Prime]

Turn 70, How am I doing? Going full Tradition (just 2 more SPs to go) I cheated and grabbed the GL eventually, free teched Drama and Poetry cause it was the most expensive tech and I wasn't able to grab Calendar for Philosophy. I built Worker -> Monument-> Granary-> Settler-> Worker-> Great Library-> Settler-> Worker. Saw the Shoshone right away and freaked tf out knowing he's about to grab all these gold generating tiles. Probably gonna settle my fourth down south where there's cinnamon. You can probably tell I settled by the ocean for a money city first, then the mountain/science city second.

I REALLY want to build the Colossus wonder, but maybe I shouldn't be so greedy.

 

[HEF]

I REALLY want to build the Colossus wonder, but maybe I shouldn't be so greedy.

If you will not build it, someone else will.


According to mini-map, you've managed to develop a linear 3 city sprawl that includes a coastal region which means you're going to need a Navy.

Each city seems a bit too far from each other which suggests that connecting them with roads is going to be costly in upkeep. Triangular city sprawls are easier to fend off threats, however, Graz has an excellent defensive position because of the two mountains serving as external walls. Further down the timeline, there are spectacular Gold and Science opportunities for having those mountains next to Graz so be on the look-out for that. Salzburg has a great Science opportunity provided what the fog-o'-war reveals.

Diamond & Gold resources seems to be everywhere for some strange reason.

 

[Acken]

View attachment 476456 View attachment 476457 View attachment 476458
Turn 70, How am I doing? Going full Tradition (just 2 more SPs to go) I cheated and grabbed the GL eventually, free teched Drama and Poetry cause it was the most expensive tech and I wasn't able to grab Calendar for Philosophy. I built Worker -> Monument-> Granary-> Settler-> Worker-> Great Library-> Settler-> Worker. Saw the Shoshone right away and freaked tf out knowing he's about to grab all these gold generating tiles. Probably gonna settle my fourth down south where there's cinnamon. You can probably tell I settled by the ocean for a money city first, then the mountain/science city second.

I REALLY want to build the Colossus wonder, but maybe I shouldn't be so greedy.

The Colossus isnt a very good choice here because you cannot use the Cargo to one of your other cities and Salzburg isnt a very good city to build it.

Salzburg has 2 gems going for it but absolutely no food besides a fish. This city will stay tiny for a long time. At this stage you will need to send a caravan to it at least. A better position would have been on the gem just left of it because right now to sustain 2 pop it is working those 1 food tiles in the ocean. You need to buy the sheep and improve it asap.

Is that a small map ? You can try with 3 cities on small maps, dont feel obligated to go to 4. Your main goal right now should be to get those libraries going in the 2 new cities.

 

[HEF]

Whatever the outcome (victory, retirement or defeat), I'd recommend saving this map to file and replaying the map given you now know the 'lay of the land' to see how your playstyle improves.

Who knows?

Maybe in the next session, your next opponent(s) may begin their position where you once started.

 

[Liberty Prime]

Everything is on standard settings; size, speed, etc.
I feel like I was leaving some of you hanging with the results. This snapshot is a save right before the Diplo victory. Yes, I built the Colossus and when attempting to expand to the south Poland already grabbed it. SP was Full Tradition, then full Aesthetics, the almost all of Rationalism until Freedom became an option. Started and then finished Patronage so the UN results wouldn't get out of control. From there I had enough gold from trade routes and was able to bribe my neighbors to war each other. (Shaka was my bff in preventing China from smashing) I won a culture victory, then reloaded so I could try the diplo, then reloaded so I could try for science. By the end of the game I had 2 level three Freedom ideologies and 4 completed social policy trees. Easy game was easy.
(I have a screenshot of trading 2 horses for Shaka to go to war with China, but I don't want to clutter the thread)

Ok, so I thought I'd take it up a notch and try for the Liberty/Piety culture victory. Changing from Continents to a Pangaea map I thought the Mayans seemed like the perfect choice!

ohgodwhatamIevendoing
Finished the Liberty tree and just need 2 more to finish piety. I grabbed the Aesthetics opener when it was available just to maximize the GP generation. I settled Tulum for the double Luxury city and it looks like Tical has greater potential to grow than my capital. Maybe I should move the guilds over there.
Going wide is way harder than I thought it'd be. It's like playing a completely different game. I feel by turn 237 I should already have way more tourism/social policies. I'd like to have one city generating Great Engineers (one per wonder) and another for Great Scientists.

 

[Acken]

This capital is tiny and you don even have made any trade route. Fix that by feeding your cap through routes.

 

[Liberty Prime]

This capital is tiny and you don even have made any trade route. Fix that by feeding your cap through routes.

Bought one then built another in Tical and Chichen Itza. Venice declared war on me 2 turns later and took my capital. Thats GG.
I'll start a new one up and make sure the cap stays tall with trade routes. Good advice.

 

[BlackWizard]

Remember that OP plays without ancient ruins so he doesnt need many scouts if even 1.. archer is better after archery

 

[BlackWizard]

This capital is tiny and you don even have made any trade route. Fix that by feeding your cap through routes.

It is super tiny. Even if OP hasnt used any trade routes it shoukd be bigger much bigger. It is turn 237 and cap 12? What ?

 

[Liberty Prime]

Remember that OP plays without ancient ruins so he doesnt need many scouts if even 1.. archer is better after archery

Honestly, I use my starting warrior and either a scout or archer to explore the surrounding area when going for my go to tall/tradition routine. I'm brand new to playing a wide empire but imo 2 scouts seems absolutely necessary in finding the best spots to expand asap. My biggest issue is timing the NC early, and when to grow or set my cities to hammers.
My cap IS unusually small as I was trying to grab the pyramids and a few other essential buildings/settler spamming. I clearly need to start over and reach this point of the game much earlier.

oh yeah, I'm playing on King so I can't cheat and grab the Great Library asap

Here's a fresh start. Built a Scout-> Started monument until I could build a pyramid-> finishing monument. About to build a worker. This is on King, Pangaea, and everything else is standard.
I saw the diamonds and spent my first turn moving my settler up a tile. I could've instead moved him down a tile so the capital would be next to a mountain.

 

[BlackWizard]

Focus on growth of capital after building 2 or 3 settlers. You should not sacrifice growing your capital for pyramids. If you have good terrain build it but pyramids is not mandatory. If you can build it while growing capital good otherwise no need. In king it should be doable

You lock all tiles your capital works? Dont trust governor it does bad job

Edit: And the tile where your worker is south east of capital should have been improved much earlier or did your capital borders just grow there? Anyways it is marsh tile and you can remove marsh before building farm. That is 4 tile near river farm. Removing marsh before hand has 2 positive effect: You can build farm faster after border has grown and borders expands easier if there is no marsh

 

[phillipwyllie]

I've been consistently struggling with an optimal social policy order when going for primarily a culture victory (my favorite, but by far the hardest from my experience)

I play on Prince....

Aside from Science Victory, CV is the easiest imo on the lower dificulties. What I do is this:
Open a 3/4 city tradion empire forcusing on a faith generating religion, culture, and growth. Whilst beelining Radio(Ideology), then Refrigeration(Hotels), then Radar(Airport) as fast as I can. In that time I win the worlds fair, have open borders, and trade routes to the cultural leaders(I do it with everyone). I pick Freedom as Media Culture(lvl3) seems to be better than Autocracy's Futurism(lvl1). I build and work Writers' and Artists' Guilds as soon as possible and create great works as soon as they are born. Aesthetics is unlocked after tradition and the finisher managed to coincide with the 4th Artitst I generate. Wonders are Sistine, LToP, Globe, SoL, and Broadway to coincide 1 turn after the first great musician are born. When I'm at about 100 tourism I build and work the Musicias' Guild settle a 5th city nearby that is connected with roads and gift it to the cultural leader. When the first great musician is born(usually takes 6 turns) I bomb the new city with faith bought ones, and the Broadway one.

 

[Liberty Prime]

So reading this https://civscience.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/how-to-maximize-the-number-of-social-policies/ it seems as if going for Lib/Piety and maximizing culture is worth it if you want the highest number of social policies. Playing with Poland, you may be able to get away with it without going too slow starting Rationalism/Aesthetics.

You don't technically have to finish Liberty. Although missing Republic and Collective Rule can be rough, just grab Representation spending 3 SPs instead of 6.
I feel as if maximizing the number of science and social policies will set you up for the most comfortable lead by the time you reach the techs required for any of the 3 victories. (domination is obviously independent from this)
The best way to secure a culture victory seems like to just ignore everything up until you have the tech, while along the way building the correct essential wonders so you have a solid base tourism. Once you're at the end of the tree build a Musicians Guild and win 1st place during the world fair ftw. Even if you don't want a culture victory defensively building up maximum culture and science seems like the best way to keep your options open to consistently pursue any victory.

Unfortunately, I spent the past few weekends reading up and improving my 3-4 city tradition game. I have no idea how to properly go wide, and even if I did this strategy may not be viable at all.

When I'm at about 100 tourism I build and work the Musicias' Guild settle a 5th city nearby that is connected with roads and gift it to the cultural leader. When the first great musician is born(usually takes 6 turns) I bomb the new city with faith bought ones, and the Broadway one.

That's very clever. I wouldn't even think about gifting a city.

 

[Acken]

So reading this https://civscience.wordpress.com/2016/03/11/how-to-maximize-the-number-of-social-policies/ it seems as if going for Lib/Piety and maximizing culture is worth it if you want the highest number of social policies.

Spending in policies to get more policies is a bad idea. You need a good reason to invest in the policies. Ive had some fun with lib piety games though with a civ like celts.

You don't technically have to finish Liberty. Although missing Republic and Collective Rule can be rough, just grab Representation spending 3 SPs instead of 6.

You take Liberty and skip its 2 best policies... I just dont get your reasoning.

I feel as if maximizing the number of science and social policies will set you up for the most comfortable lead by the time you reach the techs required for any of the 3 victories. (domination is obviously independent from this)

You have it backwards. Early economic strength and rapid devlopment is what is important. Policies and Techs are a consequence of it.